What is your opinion of Judo as a martial art?

I'm for it. Lot's of Muslim's seem to be against it but it's very old, much older than Krav Maga. I also think it's important that little Hebrew children are trained in what they believe. I personally have nothing against the Ju's and think they should practice their way or Do. So there's my opinion of Judo.

I'm an avid practitioner of judo. I wouldn't call judo a complete (practicing various ranges of combat adequately/often) martial art, but as a sport, randori (free practice) is an invaluable tool.

Judo is a great martial sport and conditioner for those young and/or fit enough to engage in it. Most of the internal arts experts that I have met who give the impression that they could apply their skills free-style in an unrehearsed manner; have done western or Chinese wrestling or judo at some point in their youth. Self-defense is like making love -- very difficult to do properly if you can't touch the other person.

On the other hand, like many "sports", it can be difficult to learn to react to non-judo attacks unless you have cross-trained to sort out the practical stuff from the stuff that only works if your opponent is wearing the right kind of gi, etc.

What, if any, are the essential differences between judo and shiao chou?

The primary difference is the absence of groundwork in Shuai Jiao. Shuai Jiao is a stand up throwing art.

In addition, you accumulate points in a SJ match over a period of time, the fighter with the most points wins. A Judo match can be won with a clean, hard throw that lands an opponent on his back, or by a submission technique on the ground.

Sacrafice throws are also illegal in SJ (if you dropped to the ground to throw your opponent, you would have effectively "thrown" yourself first).

I think SJ has a greater variety of throwing techniques than Judo and a greater number of allowed grips.

The Gracies say that it was Judo's tradition of randori or free pracice that led to the tradition of their art, which is almost entirely non-cooperative sparring based. They hinted at that aspect of their training leading to a cool head and ability to apply a pre-arranged strategy to their opponents, even in the turmoil of battle, as it were. I think that there's some merit to that statement. I respect Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

I think as "sports" go, wrestling and Judo really give some young people a strong foundation in real fighting. If they took even a short period of time to think about and develop a way to bridge their very strong grappling skills with ways to end a fight, they become extremely effective fighters.

Ever seen a street fight or even school yard confrontation, against some tough guy and a wrestler... hehe... A fireman's carry, some judo sacrifice throw or sweeps, and just plain old pins might seem dumb at first, but watch the frustration of a man trying to punch that wrestler more than once meaningfully. A hip toss or fireman's carry on any but the softest surfaces for someone uninitiated in breakfalls is horribly painful, winding or possibly even incapacitating. I'd imagine many a fight between a brawler and wrestler has ended relatively blood-free with the embarassment or exhaustion of a once proud boxer.

I've seen what you mean, Jason, but I've also seen many a fight end as soon as it started with a hard pound to the head. However, I too read what the Gracies had to say about Judo, and it opened up a new viewpoint for me, mainly, that sport-fighting CAN have a place in training for real combat. Since Judo and Jujitsu share similiar principles, the judo guy can have "force-fed" them into himself through competition before going onto the rougher stuff faster than the "traditional" guy can. As a matter of fact, since ANY contact training teaches timing, distancing and angling that can be applied, to a certain extant, to any martial art, I have been looking for a judo school in my area (Chattanooga, TN), but am surprised that I'm unable to locate one.

Tim, sounds like both the chinese wrestling and judo both have strong points over the other. I guess it would be ideal to train in both? Also, is "mongolian" wrestling the same thing as the Shuai Jiao (corrected spelling)? I doubt I'd find an instructor for that near me, but there is a chen taiji instructor available to me. I read on the chen village website that they compete in Shaui Jiao. Is that because the priniciples are similiar, or do they do that in addition to taiji?

Kenneth,
Mongolian wrestling is similar to the Chinese styles in that it is stand up wrestling, but the Mongolian style places a somewhat greater emphasis on strength and power in their techniques. Also, I believe a Mongolian wrestling match ends as soon as one of the competitors is thrown.

All (traditional) Taijiquan is comparable to Shuai Jiao, Taijiquan techniques heavily favor throws and projections.

Thanks, Tim. I think I will take this opportunity.

Kenneth,

IMHO this week anyway - TCC for the striking, yielding , & entering. Shuai Jiao for the grabbing & throwing. BJJ if you find yourself on the ground with him or her.

I think Mongolian Wrestling is the oldest form & Shuai Jiao would be kind of classical with some rules too. What you want I think is Combat Shuai Jiao or San Shou Shuai Jiao.

DragonPrawn,

How long have you studied TCC and still think it's mainly good for striking, yielding and entering???

Grabbing and throwing are all over TCC. (to see a cool example- go back to shenwu and the 'Tai Ji Quan page'- scroll to the bottem and check out the giff of 'snake keeps down'

(http://www.shenwu.com/yangtchnq.htm)

It's nice to see you're coming around to the concept of cross training but it sounds like you've glossed over some vital parts of Tai Ji.

Shane,

I agree with you. Gee that's a scary thought. Oh well. However I never gloss over TCC. My exploring other things has made me respect TCC even more if that's possible. And my nei kung quickly heals all those vicious BJJ neck cranks!

Anyway I know TCC can be used for throws. Of course since my teacher is primarily a striker & since my school has no mats I have not focused on these things. Although when students at the school put on demonstration they sometimes incorporate throwing.

If, on the other hand, you train with a Shuai Chiao teacher you will throw & get thrown plenty. That is probably not true of most TCC teachers. Am I right about that?

An interesting thing happened the other day when I was down the MA supply store. I asked the guy if he had any books on Shuai Chiao & the first thing he handed my was Effortless Combat Throws by Tim Cartmell - even though he had books on Shuai Chiao! Plus a book I bought called Fast Chinese Wrestling for Fighting & it had a photo of a slant flying TCC posture application on the cover. The similarities abound.

Cool. I hope you tipped that guy at the MA supply.

Thanks. Any more, I generally consider the quality of the teacher rather than just the style. It would be nice if we could have our choice of truly martial instructors of unadulterated arts to choose from, but this is almost never the case. I looked for Judo because of its groundfighting and figured it would be easier to find than BJJ. Shane, I tend to think of it more as "additional" rather than just "cross" training (I still feel unless someone has developed a good foundation in one set of principles to see their individual strengths and weaknesses, they aren't qualified to map out a training "map" for themselves; schools like Tim's are the exception rather than the rule), but yeah, if I'm honest with myself, I guess that is basically what I've been trying to do recently.

Kenneth- okay. I'm glad to know you're additional-training.

DragonPrawn- Is it really unnerving to agree with me? I mean- with all your arms can't one of them one of them give me a 'thumbs up' when it's deserved.

I tell you what Dragonprawn. It's even scarier to grapple with Shane. He will do techniques that he's never been taught before and he will do it perfectly.

It's not bad to agree with him more often.

Shane,

A respected master i took a seminar with at the 2003 Taiji Legacy last week told me to keep my thumbs down for chi circulation. Sorry, no thumbs up for you at this time - until the next best advice comes along!

If you've ever done Judo randori in competition, you realize quickly that it has many of the same attributes as a real fight. It is quick, powerful, anaerobic, and in the clinch.

The most valuable tools you can learn from Judo comes from the intensity of the "live" sparring and the comfort of the clinch, along with basic groundwork.

The techiniques are irrelevant, for a real fight is more about the first stike and all out intensity.

The weakness lies in it's defense against a "good" boxer, not just any striker, but a "good" boxer.

Anyone who saw Yoshida in the last Pride saw a great example of a Judoka having problems with strikes, yet once in the clinch and on the ground.•••• was over!

A good Judoka with basic boxing skills is deadly.