What are your opinions on the Phonix Eye Fist? Is it even used in the internal systems?

I think it's probably the best thing since the Platapus Gullet Palm.

Actually, I prefer the "Flying Fish Fingers" technique that was taught to me by an old Taoist monk who just happened to live next door to me. He would teach me when he wasn't too busy sewing quasi-military outfits for middle-aged white internal arts experts who should know better ... no wait, my memory was failing me for a moment ... I learned this "secret" from reading an ancient manuscipt that I happened to find on the floor of a grocery store in my local Chinatown.

Unlike the Phoenix Eye fist or the Platypus Gullet Palm this provides deadly efficacity when one has mastered the ability to fling scalding hot battered cod piences from the deep-fryer directly at your opponent's eyes. Nothing fishy about such mastery ...

Zodak,
Most IMA styles teach to punch with the big knuckles. Trying to hit small points with specific knuckles is not emphasized.

I ask because I have a friend in WIng Chun who says it is used quite often (as well as Bak Mei and some other external Chinese arts).

By the way Tim,

do you mean strikes with the bik knuckle like a boxer? Or vertical fist like wing chun? Can you elaborate more?

Zodak, if you look at Pak Mei and Southern Mantis vital point strikes, many of them are actually done with an open palm to "shock" a wider area in which vitals are located, or, if more penetration is needed, a clawhand is used as these are close-range arts and there is much clinching. The "phoenix-eye fist" is often reserved for a coup de grace, and not necessarily to a "vital point". It delivers a more penetrating blow, and is actually a stronger knuckle (if properly conditioned) being pyramidlike in shape, whereas, according to Jerry Peterson, the first knuckle is a floating joint, hence the hand injuries when boxers punch someone without gloves. Obviously, it takes slow, careful conditioning and LOTS of patience and consistent training to develop, or you will end up with an arthritic trigger-finger. My own training once took a 2 month setback when I bruised the bone from overzelousness because a training session "felt ok", but the pain came the next day. Slower is faster here.

Tim, just looked at the pictures of Sun Lu Tang in his Xing-Yi book and if you look closely, it appears his index knuckle is indeed extended in many of them.

Kenneth;
You have a tendency to post twice in very short time in a BTW fashion,etc.

You are able to use the Edit Post function if you need to add to a Post within 30 minutes of the original Posting.

What do you think of using the phonix eye fist to the gut which is soft and won't damage your index finger? You know how boxers throw straight rights or shovel punches to the gut? Why not extend the index finger while doing it. Don't you think it would do more damage and case more pain?

The theory is that extending a knuckle focuses the force of the blow on a smaller area, hence more force is delivered to a smaller target. This will only be the case if you are actually able to keep the knuckle from collapsing back into the hand at impact. It's possible with training, but you should be careful not to injure your finger.

The problem with the extended knuckle blows is it's impossible to strike along the powerline of the arm through an extended middle knuckle, precluding a maximum power strike (which sort of defeats the purpose of extending the knuckle in the first place) while leaving the hand more susceptible to injury.

Tim,

Just to clarify - In most fist applications do you prefer to hit with your index & middle knuckles, or ring finger & pinky, or all four flush?

A deep and meaningful application passed down by hardcore Taoist traditionalists is to connect the index finger to the thumb and establish a direct powerline with your authentic self.

Really? My thumb and index finger can't even touch when I 'established a connection with my authentic self'- if you get what I'm saying.

So this thread is for chi huggers and the application of ointment, although it'll soon be an example of sy op interventionist techniques no doubt. Its an unusual example of dit ta, does the effect vary with different meals previously ingested.

The most powerful hand strike that runs along the powerline of the arm is a palmheel. The knuckles of a "regular" fist can only do this by taking an unnatural angle as taught in most sport karate schools, in which case the stabilizing muscles of the wrist develop lopsidedly, causing possible damage to the delicate wrist bones in time (not such a problem with a vertical fist, however). At any rate, it is true the second knuckle will not be quite as strong as the first, the same way that a fist is not as strong as a wrist strike, and a wrist strike is not as strong as an elbow, and an elbow is weaker than the shoulder. The more removed from the center of movement, the weaker. This is why we condition, so that we are always armed. Zodak, soft targets can absorb shock better, you may be better off using your knee to the gut, or a palm, elbow or bootheel, as the target itself is spread out and has no focal point unless you want to get into "dim mak" fantasies. Not that such knowledge doesn't exist, just that it is greatly misunderstood and sensationalized by movies, legend, etc. At this point, I am close to being able to deliver a maximum power blow with my index knuckle, but it is impossible for me to suggest a time table as my early training was rather haphazard and I never learned the "proper" method. In my advanced years, I may pay for this. BTW (sorry, sysop), has anybody on this board checked out those Sun Lu Tang pics to see if they, too, think he is holding a foreknuckle fist?

bob#2, you must really have been doing some serious training. as the phrase goes, "got root?"

do you use ointment/jow in your training? i hear it's recommended.

admiringly...

So just because one art doesn't resemble what is defined as "internal" based on one single aspect of the whole (the shape of a fist) as compared to another art that is declared internal, does this mean it is not internal?


So is this inferior? Fukien White Crane which is claimed to be internal/external uses similar types of hand formations. Wang Xang Zhai aka Yichuan noted only two who equaled or bested him - one of which was a Fukien White Crane master...

Dragonprawn,
I'd prefer to hit with the big knuckles of my ring and middle finger, but often, all four knuckles will hit.

Here is a thread about this I just found:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=6e04359cbb85084230987aa 57c096f00&threadid=1844&perpage=15&pagenumber=1