Is Kung Fu San Soo related in any way to Choy Li (Lay?) Fut? I mean, was one developed from the other?

Hi Tom, Glad to see your still posting. In answer to your question, truthfully nobody really knows. Some say yes some say no. The Chinese characters are the same. There is a group of San Soo practitioners that have gone to great lengths to establish elaborate histories on this subject. Unfortunately I don't believe we can really prove that. There are definite similarities as well as differences. The truth is San Soo practitioners as a whole were told quite a few tall tales. It makes it hard to know what's true and what's not. Anymore I don't worry about all that, does it work or not is the bottom line. San Soo is for the element of surprise. Not for fighting hands up with an experienced martial artist. That's why I took up Wing Chun. That's what Tim found out when he tried to use it in China. The sad thing is most of the practitioners don't understand its use. Tim and I know very few San Soo practitioners that can actually use it. Most of the one's that can were fighters to begin with. They'd be tough even if they practiced knitting.

hey, Bob, why wouldn't I still be posting? I love this stuff too much (audience shudders at the prospect of more posts).

I saw a demonstration of Choy Li Fut and someone mentioned that it might be connected with Kung Fu San Soo. I've never seen San Soo, and don't know anyone in Seattle who teaches it (there's someone a couple hours up north, and someone else over in eastern Washington). I was just curious, and asked here because you and Tim have both practiced the art.

Speaking of San Soo, Chris Brennan is suppose to fight Cung Le in an upcoming King of the Cage. Cung Le has supposedly been grappling w/Frank Shamrock, so I think he has a shot at winning.

I was told that both arts are "shaolin". San Soo comes directly from the temple. And Choy Li Fut was developed outside but was base on Shaolin systems. If this is true, it wouldn't be so surprising if they are a little bit alike. But, this is base on what I heard. If you want to know more, I think you should find sources on their history, and learn more on your own.

San Soo is reported to come from Kwan Yin not Shaolin. However there are some who say Shaolin, according to what Jimmy H. Woo taught this is not correct. Sadly again there is more speculation than concrete evidence. If you want to read a little more about it I have a history on my webpage that is about as accurate as I could come up with. www.bscba.com I have also provided links with conflicting histories on my San Soo links page.

Thanks for the history. I am interested in how styles, the methods used to teach them, and even stories about their lineage change when they are presented to "Westerners."

Mostly, though, I was just wondering if the choy li fut I'd seen resembled some aspects of kung fu san soo, which I'd like to see or maybe even take an introductory workshop in. I've read about san soo's "no-nonsense" approach to martial training, and its minimalizing of forms.

Thanks Bob. I must have remembered wrong. My friend who told me the story knows about Jimmy Woo, so he must have told me the story correctly.

Sorry for giving you bad info Tom. I guess you gonna have to find your own connection. But, its not uncommon to have different styles with no connection that have things similar.

Duong,
Your statement about similarities is quite right! As Tim calls it "common threads in the martial arts". San Soo's methods of training and forms are very different from Choy Lay Fut, albeit the style of movement (stances and puching methodology) is very similar. According to Tim San Soo is the only southern Chinese system that incorporates sacrifice throws as part of the curiculum. Whether this was added by Jimmy Woo or always part of the system is anybody's guess.

Tom,
I'm not sure what you mean by minimalizing forms. If you mean that it is not the major emphasis than I would have to agree although San Soo has litterally hundreds of forms. They are short 26 movement forms. Some schools (most) teach a new form each month. I teach a new one every other month to ensure greater skill in the form. However the forms training is secondary to the application of fighting technique.

The way you put it is what I meant, Bob. Again, I haven't seen it, since it doesn't seem to be really taught anywhere around where I'm at. I was just going by a couple of different references I'd seen saying something to the effect that the emphasis in San Soo is on fighting applications, not on long elaborate forms a la taijiquan or liu ho ba fa, i.e., to the point where the form is often regarded as the art.

I just have to ask. I love books, especially old ones. On your website, it was stated that Jimmy Woo had the two original books taken from the temple. Who has them now? Did anybody think of translating them? Looking over the books, we could discover how San Soo being taught today, differ from the source. It be a great comparative study. Sorry if I sound like a kid. I love books, history, and kungfu. An exploration of all three at once really gets my blood flowing.

I'm was reffering to Bob's website

Duong,
Good question! The books are now in the possesion of J.P. King ( Jimmy's grandson ). Tim offered to translate them but they would not allow him to even look at them. I find this truly sad. Your absolutely right though, the books would clear up all questions in regard to how the art is taught. Maybe someday they will make this available, but right now it doesn't look hopeful.
P.S. Thanks for visiting my site.

The more things change, the more things stay the same. I'm really sad, but I understand. I just hope nothing happens to the books, else what they contain may be lost forever. Hope they at least make backup copies... I'm a software engineer. We love to make backups of everything.

Duong -
There is also question on whether the books are authentic. There is a famous picture of Jimmy reading the books that many San Soo studios have on display. I have heard that the materials and spine of the books do not follow the binding practices for the time period.
Bob, Here is a novel site about San Soo and Jimmy.
TLH Martial Arts & Fitness School

Hello old friend,
What do you think of the site you mentioned above? I know they have done an excellent job putting it together. What I mean is do you think their history is correct? Tim sent me this link recently. It certainly is well done, I doubt the accuracy personally. However since I'm not a historian I could be the one that's wrong! Now there's a novel thought!

Hi Bob;
I really have no opinion of the site. I do not know any of the people that were consultants to the site. I never had much interest in the history of San Soo. It's something that will never be known so why get an ulcer over it? I had practiced San Soo for twenty something years and I never questioned the history or the art itself. I guess I just never needed to have a story attached to San Soo. It worked and that was good enough for me. I was training for quite awhile before I even knew about Jimmy. I was an instructor for Frank Woolsey in the early '70s. Frank had one of the largest chains of Martial arts schools in SoCal at the time. He never told us anything about the history of San Soo other than that he learned from Jimmy. We were told that San Soo was created in the battlefields and written down by the literate monks. There even came a point were Frank went on a radio program and he tried to distance himself from Jimmy. He said that he learned the art from a Chinese man. I think by the time I was with Ted Sias that I was past the stage were I was interested in the history. Why do you question the history that is stated on that website?
I would like to change the subject for a moment. I have been in over a dozen street fights and San Soo has only let me down once (A hands up fight of course). I'm like Tim and other modern Martial artist now days. If it works I'll include it in my repertoire. I have no allegiance to a style.

In answer to your question, I'd have to say I'm a skeptic at heart. I question how they traced a history that Jimmy didn't seem to know of. Like I said before I could be wrong. I know the study of Chinese history is one of Dan Hoffman's specialties. No doubt his knowledge in this area far surpasses mine. So I guess I'm going on a gut feeling. It is an interesting read, and once my webmaster returns from walkabout I will add the link to my page.
On your side note, I'm with you. I've probably been in 6 fights in the last 25 yrs. San Soo never let me down! I've never been in a hands up street fight. I've never been in a fight that required more than one punch at least not since I was a kid. I do see the need for hands up skills as well as grapling. I realized I needed hands up when I met a fellow Wing Chun practitioner by the name of Blaine Collins. I sparred with him and he litterally kicked my ass without me ever landing a single blow. That convinced me! Then Tim convinced me of the need for grapling! So I guess you could say I'm an open minded traditionalist. The arts I practice and teach, I teach the way I learned them. I find that they flow easily one to the other. Many of my students train in more than one style. I just wish I had learned BJJ when I was younger. I find it hard to motivate myself for such a grueling workout. I do OK with it, as long as you don't compare me to anyone with any skill! I enjoy the learning process. Motivation wise it would be a lot easier if I could attend Tim's class. On the other hand the workout would probably kill me, before it made me stronger! I do envy you guys that get to train with Tim all the time. Your very fortunate indeed! Well my friend, I've rambled enough. I don't want to be accused of "VP"( actual words could get me barred from the board).

Some of you guy's asked me about this site after I mentioned it in class. Slow download.

Women of San Soo

Fut Ga: Psychology (Internal Power)
…Or, “The Use of the Mind Over the Body.”
--- Jimmy H. Woo

To know Kung-Fu San Soo is to understand that it is a complete fighting art. The most important distinction between Kung-Fu San Soo, and other forms of self-defense is exactly that very word: self-defense. While other martial arts view being aggressive and offensive in a negative light, in Kung-Fu San Soo it is an integral part of the art represented by the family of Fut Ga.

The fourth family of Kung-Fu San Soo is Fut Ga. Fut Ga deals with the art and science of psychology or “internal power.” It is understanding proper breathing and concentration, but also the psychology of fighting. It deals with survival instincts, and the maxim, “the best defense is a good offense.” In his book, Predator Training: The Inner Beast of San Soo, Master Greg Jones agrees by saying that, “…the fut ga family is entirely offense-oriented in its application” (1).

In Chinese, Fut means Buddha, Buddhism, or a Buddhist. Ga means family, clan, or sect. We all know that Kung-Fu San Soo, or Tsoi Li Hoi Fut Hung Kung-Fu San Soo, started at a Kwan Yin monastery in southern China---or, at least the Chin family dynasty did! But, that does not explain how we (as Kung-Fu San Soo practitioners) became such ruthless fighting (and killing) machines? To answer this question, first we must look at the past to understand the present.

Before we go into any further details, we must examine Chinese culture as it relates to religion. In Asian cultures, it is perfectly acceptable (in fact, it is the norm) to believe in two or more religions at the same time. For example, a Chinese person could be a Buddhist, and also be a Taoist. Or, a Chinese person could be a Taoist, and also be a Confucianist. Or, a Japanese person could be a Shintoist, and also be a Zen Buddhist. So, it is perfectly normal within Chinese culture to have a Buddhist temple also be a Kwan Yin monastery. So far so good, right?

But, who is this Kwan Yin anyway? Good question. Kwan Yin is part of the ancient Chinese folklore religion that pre-dates Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism. Kwan Yin is the Chinese goddess of mercy, compassion, and child bearing. She is frequently depicted in Chinese statues as sitting on a lotus flower, sometimes carrying a child in her arms. She was one of the first goddess assimilated into Buddhist culture, and she is called “The Buddha of Compassion” because she sacrificed her treasures in heaven to come to the aid of mankind. No act of violence can be directed towards her by any being in the universe. For example, she could walk safely through hell, past every demon and devil, and never be harmed. She is the idealized perfection of the most beautiful Chinese woman ever to exist. Not a bad person to get to know, right?

We know that Buddhist love and respect life, not just human life but all living things. We now know that Kwan Yin is the goddess of mercy, and compassion. So, again we ask ourselves, how did we (as San Soo people) develop such a killer instinct? To fully understand this, we must understand the Tao. The Tao is the “Truth,” or the “Way,” or the “Order of the universe.” The important philosophy of the Tao that we must look at is the “Yin-Yang.” Yin-Yang is the belief that in the balance of the universe, nothing can exist without its complete opposite. For example: positive and negative, hot and cold, male and female, light and dark, young and old, good and evil. It is this balance of polar opposites that keeps the universe in harmony. It was with this understanding that the Buddhist monks at the Kwan Yin monastery set out to balance their philosophical beliefs. Buddhists do love and respect all living things. But, they (as individuals) are living things also. They understood that Man (as an animal) has the same right, and desire for self-preservation, and survival, as any other animal does. So, it was with this enlightened understanding, that they were able to balance out their belief system.

So, what does all of this have to do with us in the present? Good question. Just like the monks at the Kwan Yin monastery, we must find our balance as human beings. The beautiful goddess Kwan Yin idealizes all the best virtues of humanity, i.e. love, mercy, compassion, tenderness, and kindness. The same virtues that we all should strive for; at least in our interpersonal relationships with our family and close friends. I try to give all the people I meet in life the same respect and courtesy that I would want in return. Most times, people respond very well to an extremely confident man, who has a warm smile, a kind word, and a firm handshake.

Other times, some people only understand being spoken to in their own “language,” i.e. don’t let someone get away with trying to intimidate you. Immediately respond with the appropriate verbal challenge. For example, when I walk, I am always examining my surroundings. It is part of being alert and aware of my environment. As I walk, I am looking up/down, side-to-side, near/faraway. It sometimes happens that someone else’s eyes and mine make contact. 999 times out of a 1000, the other person looks away, almost even before I can offer a warm, friendly smile. One day, at the University I attend…I was walking down the sidewalk. As I was looking around, just checking out my environment, I looked up ahead, and I accidentally make eye contact with a tall, well built 18-21 year old young man. He looked like he might have been on the University’s football team. As we approached each other he was trying to stare me down. I don’t go around looking to stare at people, but once eye contact is made, I never look away first. He said, in a rather loud voice, “How you doing?” He was obviously trying to verbally intimidate me. But as Bugs Bunny would say, “He don’t know me very well, do he?”(LMAO) So I responded in an equally loud, but firm voice, “I am doing great, how are YOU doing?” At this point, we were two feet from each other…he just looked down, and mumbled under his breath. I think he was trying to say, “I’m okay.” But, it was really hard to tell, even though at this point we were now passing each other heading in opposite directions. As another real quick example, I was getting gas in California one morning. A black, homeless man (he looked like he might be a homeless person) approached me in a very hurried manner with his hand outstretched and demanded, “Give me a dollar!” I immediately replied, “Fuck no! You give ME a dollar!” He was shocked at my response! His hand fell to his side, and he turned around and walked the other way. Good thing for him too, not because I am some bad ass MoFo; but because I had a lighter in my pocket, and I had already decided that if necessary, he was going to get a gasoline bath, and then I would show him the lighter (lit of course) and hold it ten inches from his face. I don’t play fair, and I don’t fight fair either!

But, we have three types of people or situations to consider. People you meet who are “normal.” People you meet who need to be dealt with from a position of extreme confidence in yourself. And the last type of people, the ones who are criminals. That is correct, criminals. Anyone who would try to hurt you, your family, or your friends is a criminal. Criminals stalk upon the very young, the very old, or the very weak (or what they presume to be weak). I do not use the word opponent, or attacker, or anything else…they are criminals. And as criminals, they do not deserve our love, our mercy, our compassion, or our kindness. What they do deserve is the polar opposite of those very positive feelings and emotions.

But, how do we learn killer instinct, or “letting the Dragon out,” or “releasing the Beast?” One of the best suggestions I can recommend to any student of Kung-Fu San Soo is to read the two books written by Master Greg Jones. And, no…I am not getting paid to say that! His books, Sudden Violence: The Art of San Soo, and Predator Training: The Inner Beast of San Soo, should be required reading for anyone under black belt level before they can achieve their black belt. In my humble opinion, I sincerely believe that new students reading these two books, in conjunction with regular training in San Soo (4-6 days per week) from a competent instructor, will greatly increase their learning curve.

Let me relate to you what I have learned, and how I apply it. I remember when I was a teenager first learning from the late Master Al Rubin; he would always stress how important it was to be able to “turn on the light switch.” What he meant by that was the ability to go from a normal, loving, caring human being to a ruthless, demonic animal in the blink of an eye…like “turning on a light switch.” We should all be kind, considerate, compassionate human beings towards our fellow man. But, when some criminal is trying to sever our life cord to the universe…then it is no longer time to live by those rules.

What I have learned from the late Master Al Rubin, and from reading Master Greg Jones’ books…is my self-image. The way that I perceive myself, both in relation to others, and in relation to myself. I do try to let “goodness” rule my life on a daily basis. But, when some criminal has predetermined his own fate, then I let the “evil” inside of me come out and play! Let me try to describe to you, what I see within myself. Inside of me…deep inside of my soul…lying dormant, sleeping peacefully…is a demon. A demon in hibernation…no bigger than a grain of sand…but when I am forced to “turn on the light switch,” he awakens… awakens enraged…ENRAGED…he immediately grows from the grain of sand… coursing through my body…breaking the shackles that bind him…ripping through my skin…growing to ten feet tall…black, leathery wings…eyes glowing red…fangs like a saber-toothed tiger…talons for finger tips…breathing hot death from his lungs…with only one thought…with only one desire…he is going to kill a human being today…he is going to puncture their eyeballs…he is going to rip out their throat…he is going to bite their ear off…he is going to bite their nose off… he is going to gut them like a freshly killed deer…he is going to feed upon their corpse…then, he is going to take their soul straight to HELL! And, when the adrenalin rush is over, he is going to return where he came from…inside of my soul.

Inside of all of us exists good and evil. The warriors and defenders of cultures throughout history have put this to good use. The criminals always put it to bad use. When you understand this about yourself, you will reach a point of self-actualization. We owe it to ourselves, and our loved ones, to survive a violent encounter. To do any less, is to rob them, and us, of our beautiful existence on the miraculous planet Earth. So, when some criminal is trying to sever your life cord to the universe, you must get medieval on his ass! Take him out! Revert back to the animalistic behaviors that have been encoded into our DNA; that which 10,000 years of “civilization” has been trying to wipe clean.

I can give you a gun to protect yourself, but if you are unwilling to pull the trigger, then it does you no good. I can teach you all the Kung-Fu San Soo in the world, but if you are not willing to lay your life on the line, and take another human beings life, then it will also do you no good.

Remember, Hit first…Hit hard…Hit often…and finish him off!

What an amazingly well written, and thought provoking article.

San Soo Sifu;
"He was obviously trying to verbally intimidate me. But as Bugs Bunny would say, “He don’t know me very well, do he?”(LMAO) So I responded in an equally loud, but firm voice, “I am doing great, how are YOU doing?” At this point, we were two feet from each other…"

Why did you let him get two feet away from you if he was trying to intimidate you and especially if you were going to challenge him? The first thing I was taught in San Soo was to never allow somebody to get that close. I was taught to tell him to stop or keep back if he was aggressive towards me. At least step off the sidewalk as he passed if you didn't want to accelerate it further by saying that. Keep a person at least a distance where he needs to take one step to strike at you. Strike him as he approached if he didn't heed the warning (classic San Soo). You can't be “turning on a light switch.” after you have been sucker punched.

One night when I was teaching at Frank Woolsey's I saw something that stays with me. The instructor I was teaching with had a lapse of judgment (standing too close) and a somewhat innocuous exchange of words with a visitor at the end of a sales pitch. The man backhanded the instructor in the head as he turned to leave.

I recommend A Bouncer's guide to Barroom Brawling: Dealing with the Sucker Puncher, Streetfighter, and Ambusher by Peyton Quinn. Tim turned me on to this book.

I was also taught to assume somebody was always superior in Martial art's, physical strength, etc than me. Be very cautious.

That reminds me of a brawl I got into recently.

I was walking down the street and this guy coming towards me said "How ya doin'?" when our eyes met.

I replied "I'm doing GREAT..." then, I realized
he was entering my safe distance (obviously attempting to intimidate me) so I stepped in and delivered an uppercut that caught him right in the soft spot under his jaw. My punch landed so effectively that it lifted the guy up and his wheelchair fell over backwards spilling him onto the sidewalk.

I stood over him daring him to get up but he just laid there whimpering like Daffy Duck does after Bugs tricked the hunters into thinking is was Duck Season when it really wasn't.

Bob#2 -
"I stood over him daring him to get up but he just laid there whimpering".
A San Soo man would have finished the confrontation with a kick to the head to make sure he stayed down and unconscious . Wimp.

Sigh

Duong-
This was a inside joke(warped?). In Frank Woolsey days (early 1970's), all techniques ended in a kick to the head or groin when somebody was laying on the ground. The more flamboyant(jumping up in the air with a downward stomp) the better. It usually had a couple of follow-up punches to the head,neck & groin too boot for over kill. Frank was a street fighter from Downey, Ca. Some instructors were also from the biker's group called the Hessians.

SanSooSifu,
I think your story was well written, and I understand your point of view. I used to think like you. If anyone gave me trouble I'd San Soo em! Greg Jones and I are good friends. Hell I'm getting my throat crushed on the cover of one of the books you mentioned.

The problem I see is, what if the other guys ugly dragon is bigger than yours and knows how to hands up fight? Don't get me wrong. I love the art of San Soo. My attitude used to be "no one can take me to the ground", "who will get a punch in on me"? I have since matured.

San Soo flatly does not deal with these aspects of the martial arts. If you are satisfied with San Soo alone that's wonderful! I'm not. Tim's not, Former San Soo practitioner's not. We don't judge those that are. We have found through experience that for us there was a need that wasn't met by San Soo alone.

I have no doubt Jimmy learned to use San Soo for hands up fighting. Unfortunately he didn't teach that aspect. I agree with you, he probably new a great deal about ground fighting as well. Once again, he didn't teach it.

Something I personally find offensive in the San Soo community as a whole is the lack of tolerance for those that choose to cross train. Tim doesn't practice San Soo anymore, he doesn't find it practical for his needs. That doesn't make him a traitor. He still has tremendous respect for Jimmy, and a close personal relationship with our first Sifu, Master Ted Sias.

I do practice San Soo, and have taught it now for the past 20 yrs. I'm honest with my students about the art from day one. "It is for the element of surprise"! If you use it that way it works, if you don't, don't come whinning to me!

Best wishes.
Bob

Young Buck syndrome. See me when you land in prison.

San Soo Sifu -
You know San Soo, but you are going to take the time to reach in your pocket and grab a lighter that spurts fluid. Then your going to try to strike it and light up the guy? In San Soo all inane objects are a weapon? I'd like to fight you for a laugh.

Anonymous-
You didn't read his story correctly. He was going to douse the homeless with gas and torch him. This would then light up the Gas station. Sounds reasonable for asking for a dollar.

I received this e-mail from Master Greg Jones. I am truly humbled that a published author, such as himself, would say these kind words.

"I'm writing to thank you for the fine plug you gave my books in the Shen Wu.com discussion area. Your commentary was well written, well received, and eloquent. I thank you again for the fine words about my books." ---Greg Jones.

WOW! If only I could touch the hem of your gi, then I would be a true martial artist! E-mail from Greg Jones! You are truly a force to be reckoned with!

(Junk) Food For Thought:
Just having browsed this section of Tim's discussion board I got the impression that some people think Tim is anti-san soo. I don't know if this truly is the case or not; but consider this: a few years ago Tim taught a quickie (approx. 6-month) self-defense course which he told me had a lot of san soo in it -- & I don't think he teaches people so they can go & get their butts easily kicked (so I believe that he sees useful "stuff" in san soo -- but I don't speak/write for him).
Also ponder this (if you will): I know several san-soo-trained individuals who have crossed over into other martial arts. I wouldn't want any of them as an enemy -- they kick butt (& they're not all big, strong biker types). I believe that san soo has something to offer & it may be a very decent base for martial studies. Attitude is quite important in a survival situation & the san soo people I know can switch on a fierceness, even though they're all a bunch of great, calm, happy people (until the switch).

Just to make my point of view clear; I am by no means "anti-San Soo," I learned a geat deal about the martial arts and real fighting during the years I practiced the Art. In addition, it was my pleasure to train with some excellent martial artists and fine people. I explained my reasons for practicing other arts above. There is not a traditional martial art in existence that has all the answers to every situation.
When it comes to Greg Jones, have a little respect. The man knows more about real fighting than most wannabes will learn in three lifetimes.

Mike:
You came in at a fragmented part of this discussion.This sub-topic Kung Fu San Soo starting with SanSooSifu sort of started (?) at this frame in sub-topic Chen style taijiquan "versus" xingyiquan: different strategies.

Hey Former...Practitioner,
Thank you. Reading the discussion from the start was both interesting & entertaining! I would have liked to have made comments along the way, but I'll save 'em for another day (as appropriate to the flow of the discussion).

Hey Anon- (of 30 Aug 9:53 pm),
About Greg Jones. I worked at a martial-arts supplies store & was exposed to much literature on the subject; I was well read on such prior to my ever working there; I've had a fair amount of life experience around violent people; and along with my opinion, many respectable martial artists are of the opinion that Greg Jones is worthwhile reading ("professional" reading if you will). There are several authors who put out some really good stuff to consider. Your energy would be better spent giving consideration to such rather than wise-cracking (although we all like a good joke now & then, so if you must, next time give us a good joke -- waddaya say, eh?). {:o)

Not knowing what all of the other arts have to offer, Since I've only studied San Soo. (Takes a bit of effort and time to learn this stuff without trying to cloud it with other arts) I'm always wondering which other arts out there I should be looking at down the road. I don't plan on tying myself down to San Soo and ONLY San Soo, Cause its the end all of fighting. But its going to be a long time before I can imagine putting my energy to something else.

On a side note, we've had a few students show up that are ranked in other styles, One guy holds a black belt in a grappling art, (Real good at it too) when he saw San Soo he joined that night. Says something about its practicallity to me.

Scott - East Hills Kung Fu San Soo
2nd Brown - Sept 2000

Scott,

You sound like a smart young man! You have the right idea. You should finish your training in San Soo to your satisfaction before going on to another style. It is difficult to differentiate between styles when learning them simultaneously. Some people can do this rather easily, but for most it is very hard. As far as the styles you choose, that is something only you can decide. You and only you can know what is right for you. It is normal for people to think that what they do is the best. Certainly no one likes to be told they are doing something inferior. We all have a right and a responsibility to study that which interest's us as individuals. As I stated earlier in this thread San Soo is a great art to begin with. It has much to offer as far as throws, leverage, and punching and kicking combinations. The best advice I can give you is to keep an open mind. Enjoy the art you practice and train with all the zeal you can muster! If you do that you will not be disappointed. Even if you never choose to cross train, that is nothing to be ashamed of. My dear friend Greg Jones makes the analogy that " you cannot have a pound of San Soo, or a pint of San Soo. Martial arts are intangible! They are methods of body movement and thinking." It is up to us as individuals to choose a path and pursue our goals to the best of our ability. In the end what matters is your satisfaction with the path you choose! Good luck in your training and thanks for signing my guest book!

Bob

Hey Scott,
I agree with Bob: good plan! The san soo artists I know of that crossed over (mentioned above, 31 Aug) had trained in the art for a number of years before cross training -- they first developed a useful base (something I'm still in the process of developing due to my willy-nilly training history). Even JKD philosophy types often eventually gravitate towards a good instructor & spend much time with same (most if not all people need a base -- some discover their base on their own, most others develop theirs thru study with an instructor). Keep it up -- being able to spend years in an art is a blessing (& even the worst of any system learned can be put to good use later as a bad example if not something better). {:o)

Thanks for the kind words guys....

Just think only 8 years and 4 months of training, left to go....

I set a goal when I first started, That being to obtain / EARN a Black Belt in San Soo, I'm four months away (if I keep my training / progress up) Somewhere along the line I seemed to have changed that goal to becoming a Master.... Guess it's one of those never ending things. (Injuries permiting!! heh heh)...

Hey Scott,
Martial study (the quest for mastery) is a road that is as long as your life (even with injuries -- note wheel-chair-using san-soo artists among your kung-fu cousins). {:o)

Mike -
Back in the early '70s our main competitor in San Soo was Lima Lama. They seemed to be almost as prevalent as Taekwando. What happened to that art to make them disappear? I thought you would know since you worked at Phil's.

Mike, Thanks again....

One of the reasons I had originally gotten into the martial arts, Its something that I can work on for the rest of my life.

For someone who gets into an activity, excels at it, then looses intrest in it. Its not often you can pick something up that you'll love doing, knowing full well you're never going to be able to finish it in the end.

I think we ALL get caught up in, our art is better than yours, even if we try REAL hard trying not to, trying to remember that it may be different but not bad or inferior. To some degree or another. But no matter what we can all agree that anyone who trains and sticks with it deserves respect.

To Former Pract.,
Lima Lama has really GROWN -- but most of this growth is south of the border (Mexico, Guatemala, etc.). Here (in So. Cal.) there are some excellent instructors, but they just weren't getting enough students to support commercial schools.
So. Cal. has a strength & a weakness in one thing: diversity. Back east (at least when I last was involved in paying attention to the flow of things) has fewer arts to choose from -- generally -- per square mile, and fewer instructors as well; this translates to few schools with large student bodies = decent pay for an instructor. But in So. Cal. we've got so many different arts represented with a multitude of instructors & schools per square mile (by comparison to back east) -- so much so that there are many schools with few student each = poor pay for instructors = closing of schools. Current fads also take away the would-be new students from pre-established schools (like they've gone into Ninpo Taijutsu --80's/90's -- or Brazillian Ju Jutsu -- 90's/present; both are great arts, but if it weren't for things like movies or the UFC, then these arts would probably still exist in relative obscurity -- don't you think?).
Martial-arts instructors aren't necessarily dynamo businessmen. I'll probably butcher his name, but I'll try anyway: Sol Kaiwalu is a master martial artist in his system (Lima Lama I believe -- or something akin if not exactly), yet inspite of this & his great reputation as a teacher & person in general, he had to close his school...it happens to the best! On the otherhand, Phil once told me of a con man who worked his way up to orange belt level (for some sytems this takes much time & effort, but for most that I've seen this can take only a few months -- or even less), then he stopped training & opened up a school (sporting a black belt). His school was packed! He made people pay big too! He later skipped town with beau-coup bucks (leaving his students empty handed in more ways than one). Go figure!?!
Oh, another reason for Lima Lama's decline in the states may be due to one of its founders (co-founders: Tino Tulisago -- I'm sorry for butchering names if I'm mis-spelling again; anyway, his) having a stroke that left him in bad shape for awhile. He's recovered enough to try to get Lima Lama back strong again ('though it's difficult for him to speak he's developed a comprehensive syllabus for Lima Lama students & he's been sponsoring a tournament for about 3 or 4 years now).
The above is what I think has happened to Lima Lama (bottom line I can't say that I KNOW) -- I also think it can make a comeback (if it can get enough momentum -- some in-house politics may also be slowing this process). I hope this helps you. Lima Lama is an awsome art. {:o)

To Scott,
I agree. I have respect for those who stick it out/continue training (with an instructor or on their own). I also respect skill (whether "natural" or hard-won). {:o)

Good God man- edit yourself!

The pages above could've been shortened to
a few sentences:

"To Former Pract.,
Lima Lama has really GROWN -- but most of
this growth is south of the border (Mexico, Guatemala, etc.). Here (in So. Cal.)
there are some excellent instructors, but
they just weren't getting enough
students to support commercial schools."


That's it. That's ALL you said.

Its one thing for someone to post a few
paragraphs of useful insight or even comical
nonsense, but its another to post several
pages worth of banter getting to the conculusion: "can't say that I know".

I the name of friendly posting- please show
a little restraint.
(remember that each post uses up disk
space and makes life harder on our ever helpful
sysop).

Think of posting like Xing-Yi. Be direct and simple. It's much more effective than doing
four back flips two spinning kicks and a couple
of crane stances in order to make contact with a
target.

Mike;
Thanks for all the information including the slightly off topic portion. I found it all interesting because I asked the question and have seen the ebb & flow of different martial arts over the years. I understand where Sum Guye is coming from though.
I'll make sure I talk to you at Tim's rather than on the board from now on.

To Sum Guye,
Thanks for the info 'bout disk space -- point graciously received (loved tie in w/Xing Yi too). {:o)

To Former...,
You're welcome. See ya at Tim's (& sorry if I ramble, get off on tangents, etc. -- I'll work on correcting this. {:o)

SORRY SyOps (I'm still learn'n). {:o)

And another message board dies a rapid death.

I spent nearly 10 years running a bulletin board service, and in those years I NEVER thought I'd see someone actually complain about someone using the system as it was originally designed to do.

A message typically uses less than 10k - 15k of space, and that would have to be a rather large message.

As for a lengthy / protracted / spirted message? I think anyone that takes the time to post a message has done a good job. Someone who answers someones question has done a great job.

Keep in mind the whole idea of a message board is messages. Without them you don't have a message board.

I don't perticularly care to run around posting ads (Its kind of tacky in my opinion) but...

For discussions on the topic of San Soo specifically, and martial arts generally you are more than welcome to swing by

http://pub18.ezboard.com/bkungfusansoo

The longer the message the better.

Thanks....

Thanks Scott,
I just gave a quick look-see at that site of yours (& I will revisit when time permits).
I noticed that San Soo practitioners have quite a list of forms to "learn." My suggestion is to pick ONE (or three tops) that you feel comfortable with; AND THEN STUDY IT (or them) THOROUGHLY -- over your lifetime. If it's a decent form, then it will probably work well with or without weapons (with or without slight variations to adjust to a particular weapon's nature: length, weight, etc.).
Why? Because it's widely assumed that the Okinawan "masters" of old did so -- and they were known as killers: they KNEW their respective forms (it is believed that it was disciplined shadow boxing where every move was a hit, kick, trap, pull, push, trip/sweep, or a dislocation). Likewise a Chinese Tai Chi master would know his one (often long) Tai Chi form (if your forms are short you may opt to study a few or even several; but REALLY KNOWING HOW TO APPLY one short form is better than having practiced 25 & not being able to use -- let alone recall -- any of them). Well, it's (junk) food for thought. {)

Scott;

And another message board dies a rapid death.

This was just one person trying to use peer pressure.

Officially we have no limitations or rules on this board. I blocked one person once from using the board because he started threatening other people.See Tim's comment under Announcements:Why we don't have a Moderator.

Thats what I thought.

I've never seen a system operator have a problem with someone posting messages.

Content sometimes, but not posting per sae....