What separates a student's technique from an expert's?

Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Arts - Miscellaneous: What separates a student's technique from an expert's?

   By Bruce Leroy on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 02:50 pm: Edit Post

Like you're going to argue with Tim Cartmell? Pendejo.

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 03:27 pm: Edit Post

It's not called arguing. It's call having a discussion.

At least I don't go around calling people a jerk in Spanish and making gay comments.

   By Bruce Leroy on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit Post

I don't go around. Just you, Pendejo!

   By Randall Sexton on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 04:08 pm: Edit Post

"If all I did was mow the lawn to develop my skill in fighting I would applaud your comments."

"All I did?" You misunderstood; everything I do is MA training, not just mowing the yard.

"However, the last time I checked with a stop watch I could punch someone 7+ times in one second with considerable power. When I punch my hands are a blur."

Why would you want to punch 7 times in one second? Try instead to focus on "one shot" finishes.

"That type of speed usually doesn't result from only mowing the lawn. (Lawn mowing requires you to push the mower with your hands while walking, it actually can be done as a modified type of stickyhands while moving)"

What makes you think I have to push the mower at my level?

"Anyway, I was hoping for some serious discussion of bodyweight shift in conjuction with technique and how it is the key to developing real power in a technique. If anyone wants to actually talk about it, I'll glady discuss it."

I drop my weight forward when straight punching. Sometimes, I pull my weight back so that my strike becomes more like a bullwhip type of hit. This "winds" me up for an immediate followup if I want to hit more than once just for the fun of it. Kinda depends on what I want to do or if I'm kicking at the same time or locking a leg at the same time.

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 04:45 pm: Edit Post

I didn't start the thread to advocate "lawn mower" training. I just mentioned it to give an example of how you can turn an ordinary task into some type of useful training. And I meant "if all I did was mow the lawn" as meaning (if lawn mowing was the only martial arts training I did).

I also don't practice punching rapidly in succession. I prefer to develop one shot, one knockout punching power. The speed training I perform (when I do, which isn't often) is meant to increase the speed of single punches so they can hit before the opponent has time to react which greatly increases their effectiveness. Bruce Lee's punching speed was .05 of a second. Mine is 0.8 of a second. I also have 40 lbs on Lee.

--- Now to the discussion...

I also find that bodyweight drop is excellent to increase strait punching power. I was wondering, when you pull your weight back to make the strike more of a "bullwhip" type hit if you pull back as the strike is heading towards the target, as it hits the target or after it has hit the target. I believe that pulling back the bodyweight as you hit the target would create the most powerful of a "windup" effect as your hand has slowed greatly and and your momentum is stopping but it still has some making a kind of stretch-reflex windup and making your second blow as powerful as the first despite the quick succession.

If you punched with your rear hand, you could possibly shift your weight back and towards your front leg side, priming your front hand for a hook punch and creating fluid movement from blow to blow in a circle like shape. Just a thought.

   By Montaque Cessna III, Jr. x 1000 (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 08:26 pm: Edit Post

Wow. I bet u got more than 40 lbs on Lee. He's probably just bones and dust now... Oh, wait you meant by your previous statements that due to the fact you are only fractions of seconds behind Lee's punching speed and because you are bigger and heavier, you must be quite a force to reckon with. Lookout world..

   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 01:34 am: Edit Post

Mont, just some food for thought (isn't that what forums are for?), it seems to me the weight shift you describe is for a lead-hand strike. A reverse punch as in, say, Hung Gar, would also require a weight shift, but applied differently. Not that one is better than the other, just different. Is anyone here familiar with Isshinryu as well as beng quan?

   By Randall Sexton on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 03:40 am: Edit Post

I pull back right before my hand makes contact. Usually if I'm doing this type of hit it's with a palm or finger strike. So if I wanted to hit say with the back of a finger into the face, eye or neck, I'd snap my relaxed arm back, letting the finger be like the end of a bullwhip. Hurts really good!

   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 03:43 am: Edit Post

Ya, but you're supposed to do it to an opponent, not yourself!

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 11:28 am: Edit Post

I understand what you're saying. I find that a similar method can greatly increase the snap of back fist strikes and roundhouse kicks.

My first paragraph was about a strait punch. I'm not too thrilled about snapping a rear hand punch because if I'm gonna connect with one of those I'd want to drive it straight through my opponents jaw, skull, solar plexus, ribs, ect.

Isn't Isshinryu a school of traditional Japanese Karate-do? If its a strait punching then I may be able to discuss it. I am quite proficient at the normal karate reverse punch. (Even though I'm not very enthusiastic about taekwondo anymore I have a blackbelt in it) I know traditional Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo which is basically karate + some extra kicks (even some of the forms are identical to traditional karate)

   By Gunther Cervantes (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 12:37 pm: Edit Post


Your level of expertise is fascinating. Upon reading your post I wondered if you could share a bit about your training background and from whom you studied and what arts you studied. You seem very educated in the martial arts. I think if we know more about your we could all follow a similar path towards being as knowledgeable as you.

Keep up the good work. We're all waiting for someone to replace Bruce Lee. It seems that you're a legend in the making.

   By Gunther Cervantes (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit Post

I forgot to mention that perhaps Mr. Tim Cartmell can hire you as personal consultant on all things related to martial arts.

Perhaps he should give you your own section in his website where you can answer all the technical questions regarding martial arts.

Perhaps he should put a picture of your face in his logo instead of the traditional Shen Wu characters.

Perhaps we can just call this Monty.com

   By Michael Andre Babin on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 01:00 pm: Edit Post

I'm feeling a little grumpy after having to have a cracked tooth fixed at the dentist this morning -- one of the risks of doing the Yang-style as a martial art. So I'm feeling less patient than usual.

This and other discussion threads at Shen Wu are less entertaining and informative than they used to be... can we have a little more intelligence and a little less arguing and baiting.

Our local convenience store plays classical music outside its premises to discourage adolescents from hanging around while arguing and fighting as it can discourage the more mature customers.

Maybe Sysop can come up with something similar for this discussion board. ;-}

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 01:52 pm: Edit Post

I tried to have a nice, logical, informative discussion. However, it seems that some people just can't help themselves from acting like juvenile fools who don't add anything to a conversation.

If anyone wonders what goes on in Bruce Leroy's head check out this thread from earlier this year.


I laughed so hard I almost barfed.

Gunther, it seems you doubt my true power. Hahahahahahahaha I'll have to send Bruce Leroy the tree trimming Ninja to kill you with his Taoist death touch. Yeash, Bob #2 sounds like a rocket scientist compared to Leroy.

   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 03:10 pm: Edit Post

Without personally knowing the kid, how can anyone say with any authority that he can't do what he claims?

Anyway, Isshinryu was developed by an okinawan in the 1950s. Its main punch is a vertical fist with the thumb on top called a ta-te. Used both leadhand and reverse, it is supposed to retract faster than it goes out, in a sort of whipping motion. But from the clips I've seen of beng quan, it must have a more "digging in" quality(?).

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 03:43 pm: Edit Post


I remember Isshinryu now. I read a book on it a few years ago. The vertical fist punching method and okinawan heritage are what stuck in my mind.

I suppose that with training one could easily retract their fist faster than they punched even when punching full speed and power. Why? Because when you punch you initiate the punch the shoulders and body are moved also to generate more power than arm alone. But when you retract you can use just your arm which can move faster then the rest of your body.

I believe the "digging in" quality of beng quan is present because the entire body moves into the target. Thus power that a skilled internal practioner can generate with littler percievable effort.

(Just a thought: I know in some okinawan styles front kicks are performed with the big toe hitting the target. Is this true in Isshinryu?)

   By Kenneth Sohl on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 04:10 am: Edit Post

No, but this is true of Uechi-ryu and Goju-ryu.

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