Hey Tim.
I know that you are an internal arts practitioner, but I was wondering what your thoughts are on okinawan karate. The effectiveness of the art, and why it is looked down upon by some internal practitioner?
Oh yeah, and have you heard of Danzan ryu jujitsu (Do you know anything about its effectiveness)?
Thanks.

Hi Mark,
I don't know a whole lot about the Okinawan Karate styles, only what I've read. I've never practiced Karate. I'm friends with some high ranked practitioners of the Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu styles. Although the principles of their arts are very different from the Chinese Internal styles, they are very good at what they do. The emphasis is on powerful striking and kicking, and I think the directness of the techniques makes them practical. From what I've seen, they don't practice much standing wrestling or ground grappling.
I've seen films of Danzan Ryu. Many of the throws and submissions look very much like Judo techniques. I don't know much else about the style. I know Wally Jay was originally a practitioner of Danzan Ryu, he has books and tapes for sale.

Thanks for your response Tim. But, why do internal practitioners look down on Karate people(I am not referring to you by any means). They look at them as if it is a low level fighting style. And what do you think about the effectiveness of Hung Gar kung fu? Sorry for the bombardment of questions.

Mark

I'm going to be so brash as to jump in on your question to Tim. I have been researching that same question for years. That discussion covers a lot of territory.

Over the years I slowly moved from a 'hard', 'external', 'obvious' art (Karate) to a 'softer' version of it, to the 'internal', (not obvious' arts.

Many karate styles describe themselves as having 'natural' movements, 'internal' arts say they are the ones with 'natural' movements. You can understand this when you have felt the difference in your own body, I have.


All the fighting arts are into developing a great deal of power but there are greatly opposing ways of doing it. Karate is on one end of the scale. Power is developed through muscle tension and the body is under tension ( even if only briefly) at the moment of impact. Temporary rigidity is part of the process of developing the force upon impact. It is a 'hard' and 'obvious' method/force.

An observer watching a brick being broken by a 'hard' stylist might note 'He is very strong', but watching a 'internal' stylist break it might say 'Fake, he barely touched it'.

Classical responses would be that 'Internal' power generation is from 'chi' or the tendons, but no, it still uses muscle tension but in a way that is not 'obvious'. A much greater lever of force (and speed) can be generated in this manner, and this force can be applied in significantly different methods which karate cannot duplicate.

Second, even the 'simplest' forms of Chinese boxing use more finesse than most karate styles, with the most finesse found in the 'internal' styles. This includes sensitivity to your own bodies workings and sensitivity to your opponent.
As one ages, eventually one can no longer use the 'hard' arts, they will fail you. In 'internal' arts, one can continue to use them, and even improve, while in your 60s, 70, and 80s.

In Okinawa, in the 1700s and 1800s this was recognized, Karate masters went to China to advance their studies, this was openly known. It was the very rare karate master who still practiced after age 50. Advanced practice of karate was often thoroughly mixed with White Crane boxing from China. Even now, some of the recognized masters will tell you that as your practice develops over decades, it becomes 'softer' and quite different that what is taught to beginners. Even in the 1880s, Okinawas best known karateka wrote that karate was not for 'warriors', and not for use on the battlefield, but only something for 'average' people to use against untrained attackers. He also lamented that (even back then) had been changed into a sport instead of a fighting art.

BUT remember that karate, or any 'obvious' art can be developed faster than an 'internal' one. Good karate, or other, people can break your bones and may be faster than you would belive. Never underestimate anybody. The POTENTIAL they can develop is less than an internal art. Problem is, that very few people get good enough for this to make any difference.

Good answer. I would add that it's common for practitioners of all arts to 'look down' on styles they don't practice. Everyone wants to think their style is the best and has everything.
There are good practitioners of all styles, and the best fighters always cross train.
Hung Gar is a powerful Southern Chinese style.

Thanks guys.
I am impressed by your answer Mark Hatfield, that short piece you wrote makes some good points.
Tim,
You are probably right in saying that practitioners of one style look down on other styles they don't practice. It seems to be some form of ignorance.
Thanks Alot.

Hello Tim and all,
I am new to this discussion page.
I am grappling (excuse the "pun" with application of strength in groundwork. I love the idea of softness, suppleness and the principles of "go with, give way and sacrifice". But when I get into groundwork both me and my sparring partners inevitably rely heavily on brute strength. Only when we (both)agree to allow the goundwork to "flow" freely from one technique to the other does strength dissipate. The "winner" is then technique. I would love to hear your comments Tim, and others who may be interested in this important topic.
Regards,
Stephen

I once grappled with a guy that weighed 120 pounds more than me. He had a little ground grappling experience but not much. I could do virtually anything I wanted and submit him almost at will, without using much force (I had been grappling about 6 years at the time). He just couldn't believe I could beat him so easily when he was so much bigger. After class I was in the next room and I heard him ask my teacher, Cleber how I could make him tap like that. Cleber said "Tim beats you cause he doesn't use any force, only technique." The guy then asked "Well what do you do if you don't have much technique yet?" Cleber replied "You have to use force."

I think the point is your level of proficiency, size, strength and endurance compared to your opponent's will determine the 'softness' and 'effortlessness' of your technique. When I roll with guys I am technically better than (especially if we are near the same size) I often feel I can flow from technique to technique without using much force at all. When I grapple with people better than me, I inevitably get into positions where I have no choice but to use a great amount of effort. I think that as long as you train with the idea that movement and technique are the keys to improvement, you will steadily make progress. Sometimes you have to struggle, and sometimes you have to keep tapping to figure out how to move and apply your technique without using too much force. One concept my teachers gave me, which I think helped me a great deal in training was that constant movement will often negate the need to struggle.

Hello Tim,
Thanks for your prompt reply.
It is reassuring and inspiring that a teacher understands the difficulties that a pupil is experiencing in his/her training. Your reply did that for me.
The main points I get from your answer are:
1.that I must endure my use of strength until such time that strength is becomes relatively less relevant in my skill profile (and technique becomes relatively more relevant). I must understand that only perfect practice will ensure that transition; and
2. that I must in perfect practice use continual movement to guard against relying on strength to secure a technique.
Have I expressed this adequately?
I get the feeling that I will be tapping out more frequently and in shorter time than I am currently used to - my ego and my commitment/resolve are about to be sorely tested.
Regards,
Stephen

Stephen,
Exactly. Also, after reading my own post above I'm afraid I might have given the wrong impression about more 'cooperative' grappling. I didn't mean to imply that rolling with a mutual agreement to 'flow' without either partner using force was not a good way to train. I believe it is an excellent way to practice and should be done often, as well as all out competitive sparring.

Good training,

Tim

Stephen,
You're point about not caring about tapping is huge. A lot of people don't make good consistant progress because they get stuck at a technical skill level and let their ego take over so they muscle out of techniques instead of looking for the "hole" and executing the correct technique.

I think this is what the phrase "investing in loss" is all about. Sometimes you have to swallow a little pride to get ahead in the long run. This is really tough because your own head is your worst enemy.

Bottom line, if you're not tapping, you're probably not learning...

One last little side story about Tim's BJJ teacher Cleber (great guy BTW). A couple of years ago I was competing at a tournament in Florida. Cleber was also there competing. I got entered automatically into the absolute weight class. This is an unlimited weight class and since I was only 148 at the time, I was a little apprehensive about competing with guys who were 250+ and were very skilled technically. But I thought to myself, "hey, this was a big tournament and I'm here to compete." (All the ego thing again)

We'll Cleber comes over and see's me. We chat and talk about the previous day's events and how they turned out. I mention to him that they (the tournament directors) entered me into the absolute class. Cleber looks at me with all seriousness and states, "you no fight." He then goes on and says, "Listen, Macaco they huge, they keel you..." He then goes over to the tournament director and tells him in Portuguese that I wasn't going to fight, in some very colorful language. (This was infered by his gesticulations)

Anyway, Cleb was looking out for me (which I greatly appreciated) and my long point goes on to illustrate that all things being equal, size and strength and stamina do matter. That's why you should train using no strength because eventually they'll be someone bigger & stronger with more wind than you.

good training,
Joe

Thanks Tim and Joe,
Again, Tim, your words give me great heart.
And Joe, that is an inspirational story.
It is possible that in seeming defeat I may still find personal victory!
Regards,
Stephen

Tim,
Great insights on grappling, thank you for sharing them.
Walter

"He doesn't just have outright speed," Cody says. "He has some kind of natural feel for where his body is and where his opponent' s body is going to be."

http://cyclones.ocsn.com/sports/m-wrestl/spec-rel/032700aaa.html

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/champbooksandvideo/caelsanofcha.html

Thanks for the links, CoolHandLuke.
A remarkable record indeed.
Regards,
Stephen

i think with regard to style effectiveness it comes down to the individual and the training they have had. If someone has a blackbelt in karate, but ranks through knowing katas and has only done point sparring, then a decent boxer would knock them out easily, as the karate participant would not be used to full contact figthting, where the boxer can take quite a few hits.

If however that karate person has done full contact karate and really knows how to use it with force and take a hit, then that same fight with the boxer would be over very fast.

It all comes down to experience, mixed with technique and to some degree strength.

Nah!

Some martial systems and methods of training are just better.

You must be bored, Bruce - if you come in to a good thread and start s__t disturbing like that? Go on out and play in the traffic.

You can't handle the truth!

www.danzan.com Danzan ryu also known as kodenkan judo is very effective, tho im a bit bias because its the art I train in, I could go on and on but check out the site