Archive through June 27, 2001

Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Arts - Miscellaneous: Kung fu san soo: Archive through June 27, 2001
   By Bob #2 on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 07:14 pm: Edit Post

A lurker,

1.... THAT was more than 'a little' broken English.

2.... I'm an expert at dialects and that was
Vietnamese from 'Wey' which is a dialect specific
to central Vietnam.

3.... you forgot to capitalize 'English'

4.... you misspelled the word 'you're' in your intended slam.

...thereby proving that I am rubber, you are (you're) glue... don't mess around with Bob #2.


   By A Lurker on Saturday, September 30, 2000 - 07:26 pm: Edit Post

People that have nothing valid to say always revert to name calling and changing subjects.


   By Mike Taylor on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 01:14 am: Edit Post

There's been subject changing alright! I looked at the heading of this discussion board & found that the subject was once KUNG FU SAN SOO. This course of conversation has truly gone "Off Topic."


   By Scott Cargill on Sunday, October 01, 2000 - 05:38 pm: Edit Post

Typical Usuall. At least it's going.....


   By San Soooooey on Sunday, April 22, 2001 - 11:39 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
Do you have an opinion on what is called old San Soo style versus new San Soo style? This is the new hot topic now days in the San Soo world. Not sure if you keep up with San Soo anymore.


   By Tim on Tuesday, April 24, 2001 - 01:16 am: Edit Post

From what I gather, "old San Soo" is basically the techniques taught by Jimmy in the 60's perhaps into the early 70's, later popularized by Frank Woolsey's schools. The techniques are mainly striking combination oriented, with less of an emphasis on joint locking and takedowns. "New San Soo" refers to the techniques taught by Jimmy after this period. During this time, there was less of an emphasis on continuous striking combinations and inclusion of more joint locking and leverage techniques as well as throws.
I'm not too familiar with the San Soo discussions lately, for a more involved answer, you might want to ask around on one of the San Soo discussion boards.


   By BaldingOldFart on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 09:58 pm: Edit Post

My only point in posting the material below is that I think you guys have the right approach in taking your forms and applications training and testing it in tournament matches.

Kung Fu San Soo guy put out a challenge, answered by a mixed-martial-artist named John Marsh. 155 lbs. (Tim, isn't that about your size?) v. 230 lbs. $5,000 prize money put up by a group called "Threat Management" (TMI). A video of this brief encounter can be found at http//xena.polarcap.org/~sare/john_vs_kung_fu.avi
The clip takes a long time to download, but it's not bad for streaming video. The match sponsor's follow-up commentary is put up below.

from TMI:

"Gentlemen,

Why do so many of you take Sean's loss as a threat to you? Sean lost. TMI lost. The vast majority of you San Soo people out there wanted us to lose. You got your wish.

The Boys from Brazil, starting with the creative genius and physical talent of Helio Gracie, have been completely kicking the butt of Karate and Kung Fu practitioners for about seventy years. And Kung Fu guys have been getting their tails handed to them on TV for about 25 years. Starting with the annual show on ABC Sports of Aaron Banks World of Martial Arts, in the 70's, where Kung Fu fighters lost every fight to boxers, all usually in the first round, to the UFC where at least 3 San Soo people have fought and lost to grapplers. (In the World of Martial Arts telecasts from Madison Square Garden, the Kung Fu contingent got additional concessions each of the years the competition was held, to where the Kung Fu guys did not wear gloves while the boxers did, and the Kung Fu guys could kick below the waist while the boxers didn't, etc... The boxers simply handed the Kung Fu guys sound thrashings each and every fight.)

Sean is just the latest to fall to a grappler. It is amazing the amount of internet coverage that this event has caused, but there are valuable lessons to be learned, from the $5000 private lesson Sean got from John Marsh last Sunday. And perhaps some lessons that we all think we already know can be understood more comprehensively, as we all analyze what nearly all of us consider to be the tremendous art and science of San Soo.

Lets start with some basic physics...

Take a Volkswagen, pop a souped up engine in it, tune it up perfectly, put the best gas in it, install all the latest gadgets and computerized equipment, the finest interior and safety belts and airbags. Make it the most up to date and mechanically perfect Volkswagen to ever have been put together.

It would all mean nothing when it gets hit head-on by an 18 wheel Mack Semi Truck! No matter how good of a Volkswagen it is.

Say what you will to dissociate what happened to us at TMI last Sunday from what you do as a San Soo practitioner. Run down Sean's abilities, if you feel you must. (Just know that NONE of the anti-TMI posters on this East Hills Forum have met Sean and worked with him.) Try to find excuses in his "lack" of years doing San Soo. Use any excuse or issue any criticism you want.

But in your quiet and private moments when you can be honest with yourself, maybe you might admit to yourself that even assuming (for the sake of argument) that Sean can hit real hard and kick like a mule, that he is strong and has tremendous endurance, that he might just have been the Volkswagen in the above example. By the way, whether you want to believe it or not, Sean is strong and does strike hard. He could pass the 1st Force Recon indoc requirements today (assuming his right arm was in working order), but the fact remains that Sean, compared to John Marsh, was the Volkswagen. A souped up Volkswagen, but to no avail.

Technique is not everything. In your quiet and private moments when you can be honest with yourself, think about a football player who has the absolute best technique of playing tackle that has ever been performed by any human in the history of football. If this man weighed only 155 pounds, then the reality is that he would NEVER play in the NFL. In fact if this man with the best technique in the history of football weighed 175 pounds or even 200 pounds, guess what? He would never be good enough to play in the NFL. The inferior but adequate technique of larger and talented men would prevail and secure the job as tackle.

You know this is true.

Size, strength, speed, power, quickness all matter. A good big man will beat a good small man almost every time. We are not talking a big slob versus a skilled smaller man. We are talking a big talented man vs. a smaller man.

---------------------------

There is a horrible and evil myth that is common in San Soo. The belief that size doesn't matter. It allows San Soo people to say and teach that a "petite woman" (to quote a recent post) could, if she had a good reason, cripple John Marsh (or someone like him).

I use the phrase "horrible and evil" because to have students believe this utter and complete nonsense can get them killed. There is NO petite woman on earth who has a reasonable chance of defeating John Marsh. In a quiet private time alone with nothing but your honesty, you know this is true.

There is a scene in the classic movie, The Wizard of Oz. As Dorothy is discovering that the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz is nothing more than an imposing projection controlled by a man working the Wizard controls in a room off to the side, the "Wizard" says, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

With our smackdown last Sunday, I would have expected more gloating out there in the San Soo community. Instead, there is the expected ridicule and derision. (And concern that Grapplers don't respect San Soo. News flash. They never did.) But there seems to be a mild panic and a scramble to find answers on how to deal with a grappler. Because in your quiet times alone with nothing but your honesty, you know that you would not want to face John Marsh. That your San Soo, unless you are big, strong and very experienced and well trained, would, with respect to John Marsh, be just like the Wizard. You would like to "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" But you know in those quiet times that you must pay attention to the man behind the curtain. And he is a mere mortal.

Another myth is that since San Soo is for real fighting and not competition, that to add rules like no eye gouging and biting, as in the original UFCs, makes San Soo ineffective. I daresay that most street fights throughout the history of San Soo that have been won did not hinge on the act of biting or poking. Rules like not biting and eye gouging are a limitation to be sure. But everything else is available. San Soo allows a whole lot of things, does it not? Does the power of San Soo only lie in the ability to poke and bite? I think not. And in your quiet times alone with just your honesty, neither do you.

Anyway, take one of San Soo's petite females getting out of her car in a mall parking lot, and a ticked off John Marsh is coming at her with terminal intentions. She can bite and poke all she wants. I guarantee you that it will do no good. In your quiet time you know this to be true.

Here is a piece of information you do not know. Sean, while pushing Marsh's head away, to try and keep him from finishing him off, had his thumb accidentally go all the way to the first joint in Marsh's eye. Marsh's response? He moved his head. Big deal. Even if Sean had had intentions of trying to gouge his eyes, he could not as he had a house with arms on him. But with that being said, Marsh is one of those people who if you did poke his eye out, he would kill you as punishment. In your quiet time alone with your honesty, imagine fighting someone like that.

And in your quiet time you know that the most likely outcome if a motivated-by-bad-intentions Marsh was coming at you. You get out of your car, he is enraged and coming at you. How can you say that he will kick your butt in competition but that you will magically prevail in the street? In this street scenario he is ready and coming for you. The element of surprise is virtually gone. Remember, John Marsh is a professional fighter, a large, talented and extremely strong man. And he can hit and kick hard as well. You are not just facing a pure grappler. Not that the outcome would be any different if he was limited to just grappling. But in that parking lot he can do anything he knows how to do. He trains hard everyday. He fights almost every week.

San Soo people do not. We are advised by cross trainers like Jeff Frater, Chris McCune, and even Eric (ESANDY) Johnson, who know the power of grapplers that hard training is advisable. If you think that two hours a day, three or four days a week that the average dedicated San Soo practitioner spends practicing will prepare you for a professional fighter, then "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." The above named gentlemen, among many others, have been telling everyone what they already knew from experience about the Boys from Brazil.

But also note the following in your quiet private time when you are honest with yourself, that Mr. Frater, Mr. McCune and Mr. Johnson - with all their extensive training and hard, hard work - would not bet on themselves in a real street fight against a man like John Marsh. And they know their stuff. Do you doubt that they know a whole lot of grappling and are quite good at it? And they would avoid a street fight with Marsh if at all possible. Jeff and Chris are young men too. With all their skills they are too small to prevail over a Marsh. (Please note that in our forum disputes with Mr. Jeff Frater we did not say that what he said to do in a fight against a grappler was wrong. We were simply trying to make the point that at about 160 pounds, a San Soo fighter - or even another jiu jitsu based fighter - would get whooped-on in a street fight with John Marsh.) Very few people can be legitimate giant killers like Helio and Royce.

Size matters people. Sean was only half kidding when he made the comment about shotguns being invented for people like John Marsh. Man developed all weapons to overcome better opponents as well as to make victory over inferior opponents easier.

San Soo is a tool. It is not the ULTIMATE WEAPON. You have to use your body in a fight. San Soo doesn't fight for you. You use it. You use the principles and mechanics and techniques you have learned and practiced. But if you are a normal human being and you encounter a professional, highly trained fighter in the street who wants to kick your hind end into next week, or into eternity, then just like Sean last Father's Day, you, too, will be nothing more than a fly on the windshield of the car name John Marsh.

Treat an encounter with a Marsh type opponent like you would if you encountered an opponent with a knife or if you encountered multiple opponents.

Exit stage left. If you cannot run away, do your best. But don't count on making it home for dinner with the wife.

San Soo is a powerful tool that if needed by the vast, vast majority of us will be used against someone who is probably not a skilled professional. It is ideal for most of those situations.

Sean said that he would not trade the experience with Marsh for all the tea in China or all the Soccer balls in Brazil. We knew that size matters. The article of that name (Size Matters) was published on our website about two years ago. Our biggest mistake was not that we didn't believe it then when we published it, but that we didn't believe it enough.

Do not treat San Soo as anything more than what it is. An excellent tool. Don't tie your ego up with it having to be the ULTIMATE WEAPON that will defeat everything in all circumstances. To repeat, you are the one doing the fighting, not San Soo. If you feel the need to be able to defeat whomever you might have to go against, then start taking steroids and lifting weights for starters. Then train your ass off like Jeff and Chris and others do.

If you are not realistic about your abilities and think that San Soo will allow you to always prevail, you may not end up as lucky as Sean did with only a sprained elbow and a black eye.


Now assuming you are realistic about your abilities and want to improve your ground fighting skills, then take advantage of the knowledge of talented instructors out there in our San Soo community...

The argument that ground fighting is "in" San Soo may be true. But it was never taught to any large extent. No doubt Ron Gatewood is correct when he says that had Jimmy lived long enough to see the ascendancy of the Gracies that we would have been exposed to much more grappling and anti-grappling based techniques. But he didn't live long enough and we weren't.

Bottom line, you have to rely on folks such as the following for the information.

In the Inland Empire you have Dave Hopkins and Bill Vigil. You can find Jeff Frater at Bill Lasiter's school. Lari Beebe is out there somewhere too. Near the L.A. - Orange County border you have Bill Hulseys studio where you can find accomplished competitive grappler Luis Trasvina, as well as Eric Johnson and William Cannon.

I'm sure that there are more of these San Soo instructors who are quite competent at grappling. You can use this forum (East Hills) to network as you already do.

Here in the South Bay you can find the Gracies, the Machados and Professor Caique.


As an aside, if you want to drop by TMI and see a clear copy of the video and talk to someone who has been there, done that; if you might be interested in learning what strategies and such that Sean successfully used - as funny as that may sound, or just to talk about San Soo in general or specifics, you guys are welcome to get the information straight from the horses mouth.

This invite is genuine and sincere. We tend to do what we say."


   By Cool Hand Luke on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 12:44 am: Edit Post

Joe Louis-The Brown Bomber 5ft11 195lbs.

Primo Canera 6ft3 to 6 ft 6? 235to 250.

Joe Louis pulverizes and annilates Canera.

The Brown Bomber master of the one inch punch.

Great medium sized man destroys average huge man.


   By Bob on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 03:04 pm: Edit Post

Let's not forget the fact that Tim taped out Big Mike. Lets see 5'11"160lbs against 6'1" 500lbs. You know what. If it had gone the other way and Tim got taped out, he would have given Mike credit and not blamed it on his size even though that is an incredible mis-match size wise.
For the record those guys were not representing San Soo. I have no clue what they were trying to prove. Just want you all to know that not all San Soo practitioners are that arrogant about their style or stupid enough to post an open challenge believing they cannot be beaten. I do not know of any that attack by waddling in like a bow legged Charlie Chaplan with there arms dangling at their sides as they hand an opponent their leg other than the one in this footage.

Regards
Bob Shores


   By Sum Guye on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 04:19 pm: Edit Post

Hey, Private time honesty guy,

I've seen footage of a 65lb Wolverine chasing
an angry 450lb Grizzly Bear up a tree.

I've watched a 40lb Bull Terrier subdue and hold
a rampaging bull in the streets of Spain.

I've been locked in an exam room with a
veterinarian, 2 assistants and one determined
9lb cat who, in the end, got the better of all of us.

In your quiet time alone with your honesty you
know that posting line after line of your drivel
doesn't make you any more interesting, (Great Illuminator in your own lunchbox).


   By Bob #2 on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 04:52 pm: Edit Post

Getting it 'straight from the horses mouth' would be refreshing after that runny post from the other end.

There is only one Bob #2


   By Big Balled Betty on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 06:02 pm: Edit Post

Hey BaldingOldFart -

Your a F*%#%@in' jerk off.

I wasn't going to comment on this but what the F@@*, I comment on everything.

First off, the skinny kid that lost is lucky Marsh is a nice guy. That F*@#in' kid could've been dead.

Size makes a difference, but let's face it, it wouldn't have mattered. That kid didn't have the skill set to win. I don't know what firggin' fantasy world those guys were living in, but f*@#, you gotta know how to fight on the ground. They really didn't have a clue. WTF

The Betty was rolling with a guy that took some 'other Jiu-Jitsu' recently. Actually, the Betty was trying to be cool and actually help the shmuck. But, the moron says, "I'd just stick my finger in your eyes or grab your balls." So Betty says, "you grab my balls, you better mean it!" Anyway, the puke goes to stick a finger in my eye, so I fuckin' squeezed his head and the idiot went to sleep. Moral of the story, all that f@#*in' death stuff works if you LET the idiot stick a finger in your eye. Hey, anal sex works too, but you have to LET THE GUY STICK HIS DICK IN YOUR ASS!

Hopefully, those fucks will train on the ground and round out their fight game. Hey a little ground sense goes a long way. Put it this way Royler Gracie was about that kid's size. Royler would spank Marsh on the ground.

Why don't they call Cartmell. That skinny bastard can actually teach them and refer to their San Soo base. ••••
@n">••••@n' morons...Actually, Cartmell could really teach them a lot, but let's face it, he's not mystical. He's just a regular guy that's not steeped in Chi with some very good skill that he acquired through hard work. Who the fuc$ wants to train with that bastard. What's in it for me??? Fucki# beautiful. An easy 5K. Sh*t, I'd go get me a hooker...

"There's only one Betty, Big Balled Betty!"


   By BaldingOldFart on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 02:56 pm: Edit Post

From my previous post:

>My only point in posting the material below is that I think you guys have the right approach in taking your forms and applications training and testing it in tournament matches.<

Because if you don't take your skills and test them, you may be in for a nasty surprise, like San Soo Sean got from John Marsh. The key difference between Sean and Tim (other than skill level, thoroughness of training and pugnacity of their students)is that Tim has gone and checked his stuff under the pressure of fighters from all kinds of backgrounds.

That's all I was trying to say. All the repetitive nagging about spending "quiet time alone with your honesty" was TMI's post, not me. TMI's whole post just brought home to me that unless you test your skills under pressure, you may be vulnerable to an unhealthy degree of self-deception about your abilities, like this guy Sean apparently was.


   By Meynard on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 03:15 pm: Edit Post

Those TMI guys are funny! Private moments... ha ha ha.

Balding old fart. Do we know you? Have you ever been to the Academy? It would be cool to know who you are. You should stop by and train with us sometime.


   By Bob#2 on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 06:23 pm: Edit Post

my nubs started twitching when I read that
baldingoldfart post....

good to know you're still blathering,Tom.


   By Cool Hand Luke on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 06:45 pm: Edit Post

In a quiet private moment when being completely and totally honest to my short balding Italian /Nubian friend I stated that size does indeed matter.With a swaggering adjustment of his crotch and a bowlegged walkaway he strutted on.


   By BaldingOldFart on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 07:56 pm: Edit Post

Whatever.


   By anon no 2 on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 08:09 pm: Edit Post

happened


   By anon on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 08:46 pm: Edit Post

to


   By BaldingOldFart on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 08:47 pm: Edit Post

Tim?


   By BaldingOldFart on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 08:48 pm: Edit Post

On this thread, I mean.