Chris, you are absolutely correct. Most karate point fighters and kung fu forms champions would have their asses handed to them with a sprig of parsley by a good boxer or judoka. I just have a pet peeve: referring to dojo ballerinas as "traditional". The way you guys apparently train at Shenwu is probably much closer to traditional than the way it is done in the MODERN arts of karate-do, aikido, judo and all the unregulated kung fu styles with their cow-towing and incense burning taking precedence over fighting. But I notice in the rush to get away from what is deemed traditional, people are also dropping some great time-proven training from their curriculum without ever putting in the time and effort to master them to see if they are of use. Also, because some types of techniques aren't allowed in competition, they aren't getting trained at all. One reacts as one trains, I feel. As for Jack's post, I'd like to point out that (although I no longer agree that sport fighting is a waste of time) stating that one feels it takes real fighting to be fully trained is not at all the same thing as condoning it.

I agree with you.
I teach Aikido, although I teach it with a very different slant. Lately I've received allot of flack from my peers about my teaching methods, however most of the students seem to like it, and I believe are all the more effective for it.

I agree (judging from what Tim has told me) that the way "traditional" martial arts are taught in China, are much more effective and realistic then they are represented here in the states. It's just that I know for a fact that "Sport" martial arts are effective, and what they teach has been proven to work. You can simply test any sport martial art if you want to, it's real. I also don't like techniques that are not practicable. By this I mean that all techniques done in tournament form can be practiced, for real. Other "deadly" techniques are impossible to prefect (because we don't like to kill our training partners). This makes all of these un-praciceable techniques suspect. Like lots of Chin-na techniques, once a pon a time, there were dudes who use to brake people all the time, they actually used allot of stuff that I'm not sure I could make work now, because I've never broke a guys arm in that manor. I think that non-sprot martial arts have lots of good stuff to look at, in fact I train in them myself all the time, but when it comes to undoubtable performance, sport forms cannot be denied.

Oops, I wasn't dissing aikido, I was referring to how if you combine it with, say, karate it would make both arts closer to what they originally were than the rather unrealistically specialized arts they are now. Although I may have seemed against cross-training in the past, that isn't the case. Just that I feel if one applies themselves to something for a while, they can decide where to go next (that's right for them) from a position of some knowledge and experience. As for the "deadly" techniques, one CAN train them to an extent using 2-man forms, 2-man techniques practice, repetitive partner drills, and half-speed and non-contact sparring in addition to sparring with pads and/or rules. On the latter, I'd like to point out that "sporting" would refer more to purpose of practice rather than methods actually used. I was very fortunate in finding the people I trained with years ago. After my instructor left the area I lived in at the time, I spent years trying to find a similiar school, until it finally dawned on me that in the US, that lightning won't strike twice. Since then, the best training I've done is sparring with a shootfighter for a while.

Why don't you join a judo club?

Chris, that's exactly what I want to do. I think I may have found one relatively nearby in an online listing. Any advice on Hapkido? There is a place near me that teaches that.

"By contrast, the average modern martial arts practitioner can do forms and/or two-person training methods but has never been hit enough to learn to get beyond that stressor; has never trained against spontaneous attacks; and has never learned effectively to attack as he defends and vice-versa."

thats how all tma are and always were.

From what I have seen and read of traditional martial artists, whether internal or external, the ones who could fight had done a great deal of it at some point in their development and trained at least some of their students in the basics of conditioning and striking/grappling "the hard way". They didn't sell their students short by teaching only forms and two-person sets -- even though both of these can be useful training methods, if done properly.

Wing Chun is known as an effective fighting style partly because of the simplicity and efficiency of the techniques, but perhaps mostly because of the stories of rooftop fights in Hong Kong. I would assume that Yip Man included realisism in his training, or he wouldn't have openly proclaimed that once his students mastered the Chum Kui level of Wing Chun they would never loose a fight. I doubt many Wing Chun instructors now would condone rooftop challenge matches, but hopefully serious sparring is a part of training.

Had Yip man met the Gracies I'm sure he wouldn't have said that eather. It's hard to compair what the fighters of past could do to what the fighters of today can do. There has been a revolution in martial arts understanding. If you're really interested in fighting it's all there out in the open now. In 6 mounth anyone can double their ability to fight, with no mystery. Now if you want spiritual development along with your fighing, that might take some more work. If you want magical powers.....

Kenneth,
I'm not a fan of Hapkido.

just a thought!

Hapkido is a lot more realistic than 1 inch punch mechanics! it delivers and it is not pizza.

From what I have seen and read of traditional martial artists, whether internal or external, the ones who could fight had done a great deal of it at some point in their development and trained at least some of their students in the basics of conditioning and striking/grappling "the hard way". They didn't sell their students short by teaching only forms and two-person sets -- even though both of these can be useful training methods, if done properly."

traditional teachers often disregarded sparring or frowned down on it like Funoashi form karate is a perfect example, and often they would condition their entire bodye xcept the msot important part (the head), wang shuijin being a good exanmple. Note the white crane vs tai chi clip is the only fighting clip we have of old school guys and it wasnt very impressive at all. Another thing about traditional training that the yiquan founder had a crusade against (and later Bruce Lee) is all the secrets and stuff that the teachers would keep hidden and wouldnt even show applications of techniques they taught, often they only taught forms.

Chris, I think I'll stick with the judo.

Stan, I'm sure there are very good hapkidoists(?), but I'm looking specificallly for a method of sparring while in the clinch that won't clash with the principles I already practice.

Sports victories compared to life victories are insignificant. Funny how the quire here always starts nit-picking and engaging in sematic differencs when confronted with thier preference for superficial (shall we use "cheap") thrills.

Just like the I ching has been corrupted by its use as a tool of divination, when it's most powerful use is as a personal development tool, so too fighting arts have been corrupted by sports competition, when their highest use is as a learning apparatus for daily life.

People always prefer what they do best and it is a truly devloped man that can rise above his preferences.

Ok. Back to talking about who can win when the ring has homogenized the variables.

Oh by the way, being gay is popular too so I guess that makes it right ....

Shane,

you are not rising to victory, you are lowering yourself to winning.

Victory involves internal power base, not exercising your competitive might.

Personal cultivation and effectiveness in battle should not be seperated, if they are, the tool that explains and reveals one to the other is lost.

Keep hacking away and discussing if superman can beat up spiderman. Or, challenge yourself to rise above silly preferences and become truly great, use that sweat where it matters - out side the homogenized variables of the sacred ring. Ding ding, come out swinging.

Rich,

My point exactly, there is less risk in the ring then there is in life.

Chris,

Take a breath and wipe the brown stuff of your nose. Cheeks and lips are getting chapped. You define whose cheeks and lips. I'll give you a clue, they belong to differnt people.

PS. Shane, Tim didn't contest the fact that Grand master Woo said many things that supported a man's optiom to fight, such as "You girlfriend is not a dog, if a man whistles at her, use what you know"

Depending on the day, Jimmy could be pro-violence or pro-humanity. He was never pro passive or pro competition.

But I guess the source of brown on Chris's nose was the only one who "knew" Jimmy.

None of the other 50 plus first geneation masters have a clue.

Kenneth,

You sound like a man who knows... and who may have actually broken someone's arm. Snap snap.

Jack,
What's a "life victory?"

"fighting arts have been corrupted by sports competition, when their highest use is as a learning apparatus for daily life."

You can't apply the lessons learned in hard training and competition to real life? You should tell the army (a group I think we'd all agree is training to fight for real) to stop wasting time with their war games and competitive H2H training (that is, incidentally, based on Brazilian Jiujitsu).

ps. Jimmy Woo was a badass fighter. I heard him say many times KFSS wasn't for sport. I never heard him say sports competition was bad.

I'm insulted....

"You can't apply the lessons learned in hard training and competition to real life? You should tell the army (a group I think we'd all agree is training to fight for real) to stop wasting time with their war games and competitive H2H training (that is, incidentally, based on Brazilian Jiujitsu)."

unarmed combat is a very small perentage of overall army or special forces training, their motto is if a gun or a meele weapon is not around you than your already dead. In Russia they teach the very traditional and contreversial systema to their special forces for instance.

Enforcer,
You are incorrect and no special forces member would consider themselves dead if there is no weapon around.

Improvise, overcome, and adapt.

Give Paul Vunak a call and ask him how deadly a team member is without a weapon.

I was told by a number of Systema teachers that H2H trainning is a very important and large part of special forces trainning. For instance, if one needs to go into and out of a combat zone to complete a mission (very often including engagement with the enemy/enemys) without being detected (guns are out of the question - knives mean you only have 1 free hand, so knives are not always an option).

"You are incorrect and no special forces member would consider themselves dead if there is no weapon around.

Improvise, overcome, and adapt.

Give Paul Vunak a call and ask him how deadly a team member is without a weapon."

bullshido disagrees with you. Im too lazy to link up those threads but there are plenty of threads there that make fun of system and other special forces/army methods (vunak as well) that doesnt include mma or any form of grappling (if it does they wont make fun of it). Or just go to mma.tv and youll get the same treatment.