I think neather pre or post war Aikido were developed for unarmed combat. Attemi is a good idea with or with out weapons, and is ashame that little attention is payed to it.
do you mean aikido to deal with armed attacks or doing using weapons in Aikido, if the former then absolutely yes, Aikido tec's are very good for this,yes including face slashing with cutters or whatever, control of the weapon being obviously all important. I can only re-iterate that in "Aikido" no weapons nor weapons training is in it, although many Aikidoas will often study weapons styles alongside. 'Late' Ueshiba (aikido) is without weapons.
One sees a lot of aikido done without any zip or vim in the atemi, unless your uki likes just falling ovr I don't see how it works.
Non striking atemi in Aikido bears a similarity with the 'Saki' strikes one find in karate, jujitsu etc and no doubt in loads of other forms too, I am sure better ask Edward!
I think Chris's opinion is that Aikido is good when you have a weapon in your hands, and not so useful without one.
Whether post war Aikido contains weapons training or not is not relevant in Chris's argument, as the techniques were developed from weapons techniques in an armed culture.
By 'saki' do you mean hitting with different parts of the body (head, shoulders, hips etc), or at short/zero range?
Many Chinese martial arts have training methods for both.
If you prefer vegetables to Aikido, I may well prefer sake to saki. Sorry couldn't resist.
You hit the nail on the head!
Many styles come from weapons forms. Take xing yi for example, I've had many discussions with Tim about the techniques coming from spear movements. However as the martial art was developed they focused on unarmed fighting, using the same body mechanics but learning to correctly apply them empty handed. No one has done this with Aikido. Aikido's syllabus is still a working weapons system, without any real development made in unarmed combative. This is why Aikido has no real bear hug escapes, no head lock escapes etc. etc. While those are very important holds for unarmed combat, in armed combat to escape is simply a matter of stabbing you till you let me go. Same is true with the striking syllabus, there really isn't one because I'm meant to be cutting and stabbing and not punching and kicking. This is also why Aikido has so many wrist grabbing techniques. If I have a weapon and you do anything other then control my weapon hand, I will stab, and slash you. This is why all the set ups for Aikido techniques are based on wrist grabs, because it's my desire to clear my weapon hand so I may commence with my stabbing and cutting.
Perhaps we should all carry vegetables as a more peaceful alternative to the deadly bananas used for martial training in the old Monty Python skits...
"Attack me with this banana; but you have to come at me as if you really mean it!"
I would prefur we all drink Sake' like Ed suggested.
I suppose that if Aikido is patterned on weapon technique then it could also be applicable against weapons.
I don't know enough about either Aikido or being attacked with weapons to make any kind of meaningful comment.
But you know about sake right...
I went off thread a bit, Ueshiba did loads of Daito-ryu, jujitsu so = lots unarmed V weapons. Ueshiba adapted and added to create Aiki-budo unarmed V unarmed, Unarmed V weapons. Aikido continued this but took out hard striking atemi. I would find it very difficult to do Aikido with a weapon in my hand as they are both occupied one with atemi the other with leading the attack and then both to guide through a technique. Stick a weapon in my hand and I am back in good ol' jujitsu country.
Saki, yeah sorry, = non-striking energy strike (ooof) those times one thought one was getting hit in the solar plexus (for eg)so a reaction usually with a sliht folding to protect plexus, without actually being hit (perhaps in the school playground?) thats basic Saki then refined and developed, people do it with Ki-ai shouts too, which is nice.
With regard to bearhugs there are Aikido tecs but shouldn't ever be waiting around or be static long enough to have attackers 'complete' suchlike tecs on me..
Hope thats on subject, time for a sake
" I would find it very difficult to do Aikido with a weapon in my hand as they are both occupied one with atemi the other with leading the attack and then both to guide through a technique. Stick a weapon in my hand and I am back in good ol' jujitsu country. "
You're atemi is a cut or stab. Cuts and stabs are better then punch's when fighting. and the reason you can lead is because they want your weapon. Aikido techniques have one of 4 goals:
A)clear the weapon hand
b)change weapon hands
c)use held hand against attacker
d)strike with empty hand.
All Aikido techniques have this because it's a weapons system, you are ment to have a weapon in your hand, this is why they are holding your hand, and not your neck, or body.
Yes Ueshiba shows unarmed techniques, but that dosent' mean they are effective or even useful. Aikido's syllabus is jujitsu, only with the principals of Aiki added to it.
Ok, I got the gist of where you're coming from, what is your understanding of 'the principles of aiki' tht have been added in please?
Well I think Aiki is a lot simpler then most people do. I define Aiki, simply, as :The ability to act in accord with the rhythm of another person or thing. I believe High level Aikido deals with reading the intention of the attacker before the attack is actually launched, and being able to move in accord with that attack. This is much more easily accomplished when attacked with a larger weapon, because the length of the weapon gives you more time to act, and intention is usually much more clear. When I fought with the dog brothers I could actually feel moments of "Aiki", however I have never felt it to a large degree in unarmed combat (not that it's not possible, just that it's harder).
I have been under the impression that with most Aikido responses, they prefer the attacker be fully committed to the attack before they react.
They want a fully commited attack,yes, but they don't wait till after the attack has started (well not if they are good). Alot of what they are talking about is they want the person to be fully commited to comming for you, two main reasons, first off, if a person fully commits themselves to atacking you they will likely unbalance themselves (priticularly in the case of an untraind atacker, or a well trained Aikido uke (hahhahha)), and two, the stronger the commitment to atack the stronger the intention (more signals to read).
You're atemi is a cut or stab.
ok, i'm attacked, i'm beaten = bad news, I trash the person(s)= less-bad news, I deal with it without anyone getting hurt, humiliated etc=good news(?) Ueshiba's Aikido was(is) about the latter. I mentioned the diff between Aikido and Aiki-budo, pre-war was about dealing hard with situations, definitively. For me if I cut or stab i am damaging therefore by definition not doing 'Aikido'
I agree on the roots in weapons work,I would add however that Jujitsu was(is) about all diffrent attacks/responses at least what i have studied. In Aikido a lot of work is done with shomen and yokomen strikes and oi-tsuki punches, yes oftn badly done, but they are there, not just wrist grabs which are often anyway attack prep for pulling victim onto something hard coming their way.
feeling attacks is common in most forms I would imagine, mvement of Ki, ki no sen. Ueshiba had this good pre-war. Prizefight (eg) climb into ring and wait for the off = fighting. Aikidokas should (I understand) never be using this sort of timing/situation, therefore if one wants to fight then aikido is diffcult to use as one is too late and head's perhaps wrong too. KiNoNagare, never stopping, never starting always in the flow.
Aikido uki's, yeah, I always recommnd studying the Jitsu before the DO, sometimes helps!
What I'm saying is Aikido (as a technical system) was never developed beyond the roots as a weapons systems. Uyeshiba saw a big bomb fall on his country, and figured he better start talking about peace. So he never developed an effective empty handed system, He just started talking about how it was bad to fight, because fighting leads to death, and death leads to the dark side (ha). I believe Uyeshiba was interested in very practical fighting early in his life, and the study of weapons was state of the art practical, once he learned that the weapons he had mastered were out of date, he changed his tune- thus the difference between pre and post war Aikido.
If you listen to Gozoshioda in his lectures, he talks about Aikido using the rhythm of attacks. All things in life are timing related, I don't know how you could discuss fighting if you didn't' involve time. Ki no Nagare translates as the movement of energy, that is to do things beyond Static (kihon) attacks. Japanese use phrase "ki no Nagari" to describe anything continues -some calligraphy is called "ki no nagari" it just means in motion, like how fights happen, in motion. Aikidoka should never be behind the motion of an attack, because they should be able to read the intention of the attack before it becomes physical.
Jujutsu, is the study of different kinds of attacks, however the Samurai were interested in weapons. They faced and used weapons to solve their problems. They wanted systems that would help them with their weapons work, thus there is a major bias in Japanese Jujutsu towards weapons. Thus Japanese Jujutsu is a weapons system also. It was never developed for empty hand use. However the Brazilians did develop it for empty handed use, thus the very effective empty handed system of Brazilian Jiu jutsu. This is why you will see black belts in Brazilian Jiu jutsu, beat up black belts in Japanese Jujutsu time and again.
If your life or your families is on the line, I doubt you would worry about repercussions and worry instead about stopping the person trying to kill you and yours.
Generally there are two types of ju jutsu: ju jutsu that came from grappling arts and ju jutsu that came from weapon arts.
Grappling ju jutsu types generally did not have an integrated weapons curriculum. Aikido came from the tradition of ju jutsu which had an integrated weapons curriculum. The emptyhand methods of aikido were meant to be used against someone with a weapon and against someone trying to take away your weapon.
When you are holding a weapon the three ways that you would use to strike with it would be with a straight, diagonal, and vertical energy. If you're going to prevent someone from using a weapon against you you would control the weapon arm with: opposite side hand, same side hand, and or both hands. If you were doing Aiki Ju Jutsu your training would consist of being able to strike using the same directional energy as if you had a weapon and being able to counter any means to control your weapon hand.
Old school Judo and specifically Kosen Judo is the foundation of Brazilian Ju Jutsu.
As we all know Judo is a collection of techniques from different schools of ju jutsu held together by physical, psychogical, physiological prinicples that Kano figured out.
Kano trained in two traditions of ju jutsu. Kito Ryu, a primarily grappling style of Ju Jutsu with an emphasis in throwing and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu a weapons based ju jutsu style that emphasized pining, locking, striking (things you would do against someone with a weapon).
Aiki is a term often associated to higher levels of ju jutsu. Aiki is about matching intent, rhythm, speed, energy as to connect with the opponent with zero relative motion. Aiki is the skill of sensitivity and change. Rickson gracie calls it sense ability.
Woo Hoo! I'm getting a Masters Degree in Japanese Martial Culture for free
While all this is true, there was another factor. Right after the war, General McArthur banned all martial arts in Japan (for you young kids, he was the U.S. General initially presiding over postwar Japan). I beleive that judo was the first art allowed as they presented that they were a sport and not a fighting art. The other arts later fell in line and developed a sports philosophy.
"because they should be able to read the intention of the attack before it becomes physical."
Absolutely, most fighting arts use this, thats why old infirm kendoka beat up young fast peeps, they are always ahead and always reading (actually controlling) the when and where of the attacks, dropping centre, raising centre, seeming to have an opening etc. The Aikido I subsequently stumbled across with Hickisuchi Michio, Gerard Blaise and Peter Shapiro wasn't doing this they seemed to be using (to me) an even earlier 'timing', Blaise expalined to me that he wasn't using a timing he was just never stopping and starting, so to speak. The Ki no nagare Chris kindly translated.
"If your life or your families is on the line", if I got into this situation then its because I have already missed signals or made a mistake.
I can only speak personally but I am very happy to 'think' aikido when confronted with weapons attacks and barehand attacks. If things got rough and I hurt anyone I would see this as a failure on my part and study to work out where/why I messed up (having survived of course to so do!)
With regard to the syllabus, I don't know frankly, perhaps it depends on whom you study with? I originally studied with a student of Tomio o'Tani and it was all about Aikido in the 'real' world, barehand responses to barehand, bottles, knives, car aerials, sticks whatever. Like why to use this form of kotegaeshi as it tips over fewer tables in a bar and upsets fewer other people.
I expect I will get Brazilian JJ thrown at me but aikido is relatively young as a form and perhaps the teachers are still developing to try and understand what Ueshiba was latterly doing the former has the advantage too of not having all the spiritual path stuff going on, I think?
If one wants to fight then like Chris says Brazilian jj etc very good, much better than studying Aikido for fighting, put me in a cage and I would probably be seriously not thinking aikido.
The best screwdriver in the world makes a very poor pair of pliers.
And that is why I study Taijiquan. The ultimate, perfect, complete, always-effective, universally-applicable, unbeatable martial art
""If your life or your families is on the line", if I got into this situation then its because I have already missed signals or made a mistake.
I can only speak personally but I am very happy to 'think' aikido when confronted with weapons attacks and barehand attacks. If things got rough and I hurt anyone I would see this as a failure on my part and study to work out where/why I messed up (having survived of course to so do!) "
I wish more people in martial arts would think like this. Of course it brings up the messy question of where do martial arts stop and normal life begins...