Good question Tim. I noticed the people that always knocking competitions are the ones that think they are too good or the fighting is not real, and they think they know the "secret" when they are just afraid to get a chunk of flesh torn off that pretty nose.

Hi Tim,

None and never wiil. A straight and sincere ansewer. I think using kung fu for entertainment and sport fighting is degrading (sorry Jackie Chan, (and the quire)I like your style, but oh well). It's like boxing. Demeaning.

And while we are on the comfort zone question,how many street fights have you been in? How about something straight and sincere?

I have nothing against sports. I just have no use for them. There all part of the grand marketing scheme. I don't define myself by what US consumerism tells me I should think, do or wear. I could drive ANYTHING I want but I drive a Toyota and could wear $2000 suite (and have), but now choose to wear Levis and t shirts. Life is for learning and change, evolution and devoultion, depending where you are.

I'm side tracking, my appoligies.

I think fighting arts are a small part of kung fu.

Kung fu allows you to "thin slice" (as in the best seller "Blink") That is sum up a situation "intuitively or instinctivly," by the patterns of the moment. If you understand this principle in a wide context, it allows you to cross over your martial training into social circumstance.

Hey, Tim, I do respect anyone who has dedicated a lot of time to learning. Jimmy used to say that when you are on the mat, that you do not respect the man or the fighter, you respect the amount of time someone has spent learning his craft. You respect dedication.

The reason why I drop in hear is to give an outside-the-quire point of view and to maybe perk up some ears of some very dedicated people that the immense time investment they have made can be used for more than simulated fisticuffs.

And the junk I say to be provacative helps livley up the thread, Right ladies (Military humor) and only at your expense Chris. I think after my post someone called this thread "intense." Hell I was reviewing your site and have not seen this intense of a thread since the sports to combat thread with Jimmy's student.

Oh, back to your reply. Close only counts in horse shoes (archaic)re; UFC (an absimal comment on our society).

And you knbow Jimmy as he said to all of us many times, entered that tournament to make a one time statement about how ridiculos it is to add rules to fighting. The minute you add one rule, homoginize the variables, it is no longer fighting. It is sport compition. A game. Compition has rules. Fighting has no rules. Jimmy's point.

He knew it wasn't real fighting tournament... think about it, Jimmy was anything but nieve.

I know you like to be right (and so do I) and you are the "expert here" but the powerful are powerful because they do not always act powerfuly.

I think you should concede Jimmy's intent in the one and only tournament he entered, not for my rightness, but with respect to him. Someone, not unlike yourself, that has dedicted his life to learning and teaching.

So if sport fighting for "us" isn't always recreation, what else is it? Are you hinting about the social value an authentic kung fu education provides, even just a little.

Rice for thought.

PS I wouldn't spend so much time writing this stuff if I didn't respect this site and its owner and the learned participants and their thoughtfulness and dedication.

"simulated fisticuffs" does your pocket-protector rattle as you scamper about the office distributing the important people's memos?


Bob#2

Kenneth

No problem.

hi jack,

i'm not a student of tim (never met him, i'm in china right now), so what i'm about to say isn't to defend him.
i've been in streetfights since i was 15 (the philippines is a very violent place), and i've competed in full contact competitions. while the sports version of martial arts is lacking the reality of the street, it's the closest thing there is to reality (think UFC type, not point based tourneys).
fighting in a tournament (in my opinion) shouldn't be about beating the other guy, it should be about testing your skill in the particular format of the competition. when you have this mindset, and compete so that you evaluate your weaknesses, instead of competing to win, then competition fights become a training tool.
i'll tell you this, from my experience, i can safely say that i would never have made it out of the streets alive if it hadn't been for my experience in tournaments. why? becuase that's where i learned how to control my fear. different people learn different things, competitions should be regarded (again in my opinion) as an opportunity to evaluate your skill against people you normally don't train with.

Hark, could it be a voice of reason?

I don't see the contradiction. Kung fu is abut hard training. Sport fighting is about hard training. Both require time, presence, dedication.

You can find principles in both and apply them externally to the original context.

And there are plenty of principles to find in the live encounter of a sports fight.

In fact you can do this with any skill or discipline.

Including singing in a choir.

As to rules, there are rules everywhere. This sentence makes sense because I'm writing according to rules.

The trick is recognising the rules when they are not clearly stated.

I agree it is a shame if martial arts is just recreation, but I think for people in sports it that is no more the case , probably less, than people who's recreation is 'traditional kungfu' involving much ritual from a misunderstood culture.

best wishes

Edward

I think that sportsfighting can make you a much better fighter if you train with the right mindset, but if you 'big mouth' the wrong person, you'll still be in big trouble. So, when it comes to self protection, the first and most important lesson is not to unnecessariliy provoke violent people. I agree that any kind of high level, not just combat oriented Gongfu training can be a big help in that direction.

Jack,

You asked: "So if sport fighting for "us" isn't always recreation, what else is it?"

Self cultivation. It is difficult to measure the "attributes" of training (in the broad sense of the word) unless you actually test yourself on occasion. Mozart and Ed sum it up nicely.

"And while we are on the comfort zone question,how many street fights have you been in? How about something straight and sincere?"

Not counting minor scuffles, about five or so.

I have nothing but respect for Jimmy, but as to his intent when entering a tournament, I can't presume to speak for him.

We all have our own experiences and personal reasons for what we do. Whatever you feel is right for you is fine with me.

PS, The way we train is probably not what you're used to, our fisticuffs aren't simulated.

"Self cultivation. It is difficult to measure the "attributes" of training (in the broad sense of the word) unless you actually test yourself on occasion. Mozart and Ed sum it up nicely."

you can do all that when sparring different opponents. There is no reason to fight in front of a big crowd unless you wanna show off to your friends or something or become famour or win some belt/money or something.

here is an interesting thread:
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8720

Jack, perhaps there is a misunderstanding here, you aren't against various types of sparring, just against doing it for ego instead of self-development, right?

Enforcer,
Maybe the guys doing MMA competitions are the ones that realize... fighting in the real world will land you in jail.

Take their lead and follow.

I think aikido has some good stuff actually and dont agree with the other mma ppl that it cant be applied to mma (heck jason delucia trains in aikido now) but it would take alot of training and various drills that aikido doesnt seem to have like standup randori or mt style neck clinching but instead of going for the neck trying the grab the other guys wrist or wrists as soon as possible while they are moving their arms around.

I meant to post this in the other thread so Im porting it there.

"And there are plenty of principles to find in the live encounter of a sports fight.

In fact you can do this with any skill or discipline.

Including singing in a choir."

I knew I was missing something in my training.

Hi Jack,
I've been reading this thread and I have a couple of comments and a question for you.

You seem to think that there is no value in fighting sport training and competition.

On what are you basing your conclusion?

I see from Tim's bio that he spent a number of years practicing Kungfu Sansoo, and more years practicing other styles that have fighting competitions. With experience in traditional Kungfu and fighting sports, he is able to make comparisons from experience.

It appears from your posts that you have only practiced Kungfu Sansoo and have never trained more realistically or competed with trained fighters.

Logically, it would seem to make a valid comparison between two things you would need experience with both of them.

Why do you think your points about fighting sports being useless and degrading are valid when you have never even tried them?

some martial arts dont translate well into sport like aikido, because its defensive and the object is to find an opening and run away from the fight not try finishing it. Some martial arts are designed to fight in certain envioerments etc. like kicking wouldnt work on a boat very well but wing chun would.

Its gettin lively.

What if I was really Tim, diguising myself as Jack Vincent?

Jan, no fair trying to think for me.

Everything has a use.

Jan, have you been in live combat (war), maybe you should try it. And following you logic, if you have never tried it, don't have an opinion about it. You don't have an opinion about war, do you Jan?

Yeah, Choir boy!

Enforcer - got that right about no need for an audience. But don't pick fights in the wrong place.

Kenneth - again right on the mark. Sports are fun. But most people are using one of the best and original personal devlopment tools at 10% of its value.

Tim - Jimmy used that excuse (about misunderstanding the rules) so he wouldn't get charged wiyth assult. Did you ever go to day class and have the chance to talk with Jimmy personally - did you know him very well?

Edward - you get it, most people don't. Felicidades (congradulations Costa Rica style).

Mozart - I can dig it for the learning aspect, however to perform infront of others to "win" with a referee etc is a corruption of that process. Otherwise, fighting to test your skil between two people that realize it is a test of skill, is legitamate, as long as there are no rules, just mutual intent not to kill eachother.

Bob # 2 - I get the rating (#2)- my pocket protector also doubles as a ref's whistle. Disqualified. Come back when you have useful thoughts, read the other well intentioned post as an example. Oh yeah, please add content with attempts at humor. There will be a test in the morning.

Great bickering with you all - have a nice day (I gota go and find some Bat pencils to fill that pocket protector. That aint no Jack! - Jack, see ya, Jack - Jack - yack yack yack yack.

"come back when you have useful thoughts"

Here's a useful thought: I am rubber, you are glue- what you say to me bounces off me and sticks on you.

Deep within that statement is hidden the essence of Martial Arts at it's highest level... and you're too busy trying to sound insightful to recognize it.

I can't wait to read your next diatribe.
Roberto Numero Dos