I don't think that anyone is arguing that if attacked a grand Idea is to strike the attacker.

Richard.
I don't believe the punch you are talking (if I'm understanding your right) about is unique to Aikido, I believe it's the same style of punching that you see done in early boxing; pre-glove. Punching in that fashion helps you to avoid smashing your knuckles against the top of your opponents head (which will likely brake your knuckles).

Backarcher,
You're going to have to stop being sensible around here, I just don't think that stuff fly, haha! I do agree some of the techniques transfer pretty well to empty handed technique. I also agree that a pretty good amount of the training will work well against untrained, sloppy, attacks. My only point is that the system was never actually developed as a empty handed system. You will gain skill in a true empty handed system much faster then in an Aikido school. You will also gain skills that will enable you to deal with a trained attacker, which Aikido will not (I'm speaking only of unarmed attackers here). O-sensei had the right Idea for sure, but most of his followers have gone down the drain. Most Aikidoka are worried about an illusion of magic and super ability, instead of training realistically to make themselves better.

-Chris Hein

Chris, I don't think Richard was saying it was a unique punch, only that most other styles of aikido don't have punches. In fact, in the pics, it looks like Hsing-Yi's "drilling fist". Shioda's Aikido looks very different from the rest, if the book is anythihg to go by.

Richard, I know asian words often have various shades of meaning. What other connotation might "atemi" have?

Stan;
I like the moral concept behind your recent comment on my post. Wude is largely absent from modern martial arts...

However, I also think that it is impossible to really understand any aspect of practical self-defence unless you understand, in both your body and your head. how to attack as effectively as you defend.

We'll have to agree to differ on this particular point.

Michael Andre Babin,

Attack and defense is the last resort. Wude is more than just morality as it has to do with intent, motivation, compassion within that concept. call it virtuous action. if I am causing it an attack without provocation, that is far off from wude so for me wude is a basic issue.

EXAMPLE:
Definition again, atemi is more than striking. It is a lesson in human relaionship or connection. here's why; you are minding your own business and someone attacks. by the impetus of the attack, the person is a raging bull. While tussling with the attacker he appears to have no moral center of being, when you parry and go under his attack he is incapable of ralizing that level of discourse, so the next level is to put him down, gently of course. You warn and no response so you resort to atemi-the strategic use of special points to certain areas of body that will cause the attacker to come to his senses. obviously any strike will be insufficient. Attacker is stung (atemi), he realizes he does not understand softness so he calm down. now he understands power.

I cannot claim to practice an art while attacking the other without provocation or backstabbing, etc. That is why is also mention intent and motivation of the practitioner.
Even a simple converstaion one can tell the maturity of the practitioner and how that person responds!

Hi Chris,

I was not suggesting that the backknuckle punch was unique in all forms of martial arts, I meant is it found in any other style of Aikido. I thought the fact that particular atemi was used so many times in Shioda's book was interesting considering that most Aikido people (including yourself) don't list such a strike when talking about atemi used in Aikido.

Richard

Hi Kenneth,

The word Atemi as I understand it does really mean a strike to a vunerable part of the body. But I think that some Aikido people use the word Atemi to mean more than just physical strikes. I have read articles that talk about impact strikes, unbalancing pushes, and faked strikes as if all of them are types of atemi. So at least for my own understanding, I am not going to assume that any of those top Aikido people are really saying 70% of Aikido is striking until I clarify with them in person

Kenneth wrote -
"Richard, I know asian words often have various shades of meaning. What other connotation might "atemi" have?"

My Xing Yi teacher made it pretty clear that a wrist grab is not and should not ever be considered an attack. You should always attack first and if the opportunity presents itself you then grab and pull them into your next technique.

A wrist grab or any grab/hold/throw should not be considered ever unless it is first followed up by a attack or a block.

But I'm a newb in the newb class so this might just be common knowledge for you all, but it made sense to me.

Richard,
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. That "punch" is common to prewar styles. Iwama use's the same strike in several of its forms. It however is not a formal technique, and is not practiced, and defense's are never trained against it (in Iwama style, I've not studied yoshinkan.) That's why it's not listed as a technique.

The idea of "stop the attacker with out hurting him" is not being correctly understood. The higher level your skill, the more likely you can stop someone with out doing serious damage(in any system, it's not unique to Aikido). A more capable fighter can possibly stop an untrained assailant through use of superior technique, also, a very large person can likely stop a very small person with out hurting the (like a grown up to a child). However it is unlikely that you will be able to stop a person with your size and ability who wants to hurt you with out hurting them in like. There are no magic series of techniques that will not hurt someone who is bigger and better then you and save the day. Techniques like these would be more likely found in a grappling system like bjj, then it would be in Aikido (when once you understand the syllabus, you see it's techniques are usually ment to be cutting someone.)

-Chris Hein

If you are ever really attacked by a "raging bull" with no "moral center" your last concern should be for attacker's welfare. Your first concern should be for your own welfare and the welfare of your loved ones.

Although idealistic ideas like putting down a dangerous assailant "gently" and not injuring an attacker are absolutely commendable from a humanistic point of view, and are often espoused by those with little or no real world experience with violence, and are totally impractical in reality.

The concept of "Wu De" addresses never using your martial ability to injure the innocent. It has nothing to do with never injuring anyone at all. Some people need defending, some people need protecting and some people need their ass kicked: Wu De.

Hi Chris,

Ah, so Iwama uses the backkunckle punch too... I see what you mean it is not a full technique worth listing as a standard atemi. Probably because it doesn't fit into the weapon stylized chops and thrusts

It is kind of funny, but when I was looking through George Kirby's first book "Jujitsu: Basic Techniques" I found most of the techniques I like best within the Aikido syllabus but with a little less fluff

Richard

Hi Tim,

Great post. Words of a master. I am going to type that last line in giant font and tape it to the wall of my garage

"Some people need defending, some people need protecting and some people need their ass kicked: Wu De."

"Some people need defending, some people need protecting and some people need their ass kicked: Wu De."

And I though Tim was a martial art master.

How many years of training do I need to approach the level of Tim's word mastery?

Does he teach in concealment poetry to his higher level students? How can I join that class?

I thnk Stan's description of being attacked and progressing through a physical discourse on several levels of violence is really quite elegant.

On the other hand I agree with the Chris, Tim etc's analysis of the situation as being more practical. Once you're attacked there's no time for that stuff, and it's the idea of educating the man with no moral center by hitting points to show power is mostly fantasy.

But I think the attitude that Stan suggests could be useful before a fight begins. Most of the 'metaphorical' martial arts training as found in Aikido and other styles can be very useful while the communication is still in a talking and posturing phase.

It would be helpful for many martial artists to appreciate that violence is a completely different language, to talking and posturing, and to learn how to speak it you need to get into 'conversations'.

feeling metaphorical

Edward

Tim's best post yet! "And I though Tim was a martial art master." Haran, how many years of training do you need to learn how to spell? LOL!

"Moral fighting", the new crutch for reformed chi-huggers!

Edward stated "Once you're attacked there's no time for that stuff, and it's the idea of educating the man with no moral center by hitting points to show power is mostly fantasy"

Ed,

You missed my point. All I wanted to say simply was that as long as possible way of limiting conflics were exhausted, once it started, that was it 'Put down the beatch'.

Moral fighting does not exist. As I have worked with law enforcement protocols and a former marine, the individual who has the background is held more responsiby than the one who is ignorant of the law.

I thought ignorance of the law was not an excuse.

Disscussing not hurting someone who is doing you wrong is a funny topic. If they are not really out to hurt you, they are not going to put up much of a fight, it's easy to stop them. If they really want to hurt you, then forget them, they are bad guys, and you should do what you have to, to stop them. This is a funny debate!

-Chris Hein

Aikido, we have to make a diff here between pre-war and post-war, Aikido is the latter, Aikibudo the former. In Aikido there is no weapons training, Masekatsu-Bo and Shotchikubaino-Ken were seperate studies and only Hikitsuchi Michio and Tohei had permission to teach them, Aiki-Jo and Aiki-Ken were post-mortem creations of Saito.

In Aikido, theoretically, I am never attacked because I never wait, there is no stop start situation which = combat, I am always ahead. This is called Ki-no-Nagari as compared to Tai no sen, sen no sen and ki no sen which are all combat timings. difficult.

Atemi = a strike, post war Ueshiba removed his devastating strikes from his art and created Aikido. Atemi becomes an all but strike, vigorous gesture towards Uki who reacts accordingly giving you the lines for technique. Hopefully.

If one wants to fight then Aikido is not the study, studying Aiki-jujitsu before passing to Aiki-do is probably a good thing to do, people chat a terrible lot of stuff about Aikido, esp Aikidokas, this prob stems from the confusion of styles developed by Ueshibas ex-students who quit him whilst his stuff was still developing, Shioda left pre-war (I understand) and yoshinkan is basically Aiki-budo.

I prefer growing vegetables frankly

stev

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the info. Gives with what I know as well. I think a lot of confusion comes from people that study post-war Aikido then try to re-integrate some of the more combative elements of the pre-war stuff.

Thanks,
Richard

Hi Steve,

good to see you here.

Vegetables are often much underated by martial artists on this board ;-)

Ed