Hi Chris,

In my experience, actual day-to-day training in a Ninpo school is more realistic then most Aikido or Taiji schools. Instructors vary a lot in their approach to the curriculum, but there is still an overiding atmosphere of practicality within the style. Once a student has become failry proficient at the Kihon Happo and Sanshin no Kata, there is a fair amount of non-cooperative sparring to make these basics fluid and spontaneous.

Congratulations Chris, you have explained the essence of martial arts training with your definitions of "competitive" and "resistance."

And all in one paragraph.

I've been mulling over the Gracie's essays about Kano and Randori and how that revolutionized their training etc, and I thought back to how Shen Wu always uses the term 'non-cooperative'. I think that's pretty articulate: Resisting, or at least not helping, but not trying to hurt you or beat you or whatever. I have a friend who refers to 'partner friendly' practices. If you can't keep a training partner, it will be hard to get better. When I go into a judo or jiujitsu club, there seems to be a whole different social system and atmosphere than when you enter a Tai Ji school or something like that. Whatever pride is their is earned, but usually there is just humility. I think that people who put their ass on the mat every week, and get beaten just as much as they win, and know that that is the way it goes, have a whole different attitude. One I respect a lot more.

I love chinese internal martial arts, But most practitioners of CIMA need to have their ass handed to them. It would improve the community of practitioners enormously.

But like I was telling one person, "most people that wanna fight don't go to arts like Taiji, and most people that go to arts like Taiji don't wanna fight."

i really disagree with that.internal arts WILL improve your fighting skills, that is if you do it properly.

I agree with Jason, my experience of much of the internal arts community in the UK (and France, and...) was a sense of insecurity born from a comparison of their skills with mythical masters and hidden under an attitude of superiority.

Robert no one here is disputing you can use IMA to learn to fight, we're just saying many people use it to pretend to learn to fight, or to learn to pretend fight.

Ed

robert's logical abilities and eloquence are stunted at best.

Ed Wrote

"many people use it to pretend to learn to fight, or to learn to pretend fight."

Nice saying, I think what has'nt been mentioned yet is conditioning, I've seen really good practitioners of Aikido, Juijitsu, Ninpo, Taiji and so on but they don't devote much time to conditioning. By conditioning I mean the type of say shoulder (Kao) striking a wall 50 times each day, hitting a punch back 200 times a day with your elbow, sitting in deep horse riding stance for 10 minutes and other standing practices, conditioning to take a punch in 2 partner practices, rope skipping, and so on. Please excuse the examples given as they are just a few of many.

I feel conditioning is the "major" for self defence, you need to condition.

Kind Regards

Jay

Whoops I meant hitting a punch bag (I wrote hitting a punch back) Ouch! No don't try hitting someones fist with your elbow ouch! Although I'm told that is a bona fide silat technique, just make sure you don't get your funny bone punched !

Jay

I'm sure many of you have already heard this;
when Karl Gotch (the greatest living catch wrestler) was asked "what's the best submission hold?" his reply was "conditioning."

Hmm, what I'm going to say is also reflected in another post right now.
" I've seen really good practitioners of Aikido, Juijitsu, Ninpo, Taiji and so on but they don't devote much time to conditioning."

I think this also has to do with the desire for magical abilitys. Conditioning seems like sports to most people. Sports is something non magical, Also something many current martial arts practitioners were never good at. Many martial artists are nerds, and were always picked last for the football team, and never considered "cool" or useful. As soon as they discovered martial arts, they seemingly found a way (especially for the skinny and small ones) to finally beat up all the tough sports guys who had given them grief. They found a way to use their mind to beat up the tough athletic guys. So, many modern martial artists turned their back on sports and all things related to them long ago, and doing conditioning makes it seem like sports to them. These people don't want to get physically stronger (unless by magic spell) because they are in martial arts to learn to make their mind stronger, and to learn tricky techniques that will help them to righteously beat up the cool kid who "kept them down" during high school.

This is all a bunch of business that most martial arts nerds have to get through in order to become better. The other faction is of coarse the high school jock who never got beyond going out for the team and wants only to play more sports. These people tend to be better adjusted, just sometimes a little short sited in their scope.

Internal martial arts, competitive martial arts, combative martial arts, traditional martial arts, they all have the same goal, to get better at fighting and enjoy life in the process. Limiting what you will do to get better only lessens your ability, and limits your scope.

-Chris Hein

Chris, your observations of most aikido and ninpo schools I agree with. It has been said here many times that it isn't the style but the school itself. This is a difficult area to get into without a lot of yammering about the "toughest" schools or the "genuine" systems, etc. And some time back, I mentioned that a resisting partner (assuming you built up to that level of resistance) was actually cooperating with you by challenging you to reach beyond your current skill level.

Keeping this gradual progression in mind, there is no reason you can't practice your "deadly" techniques at least to a certain extant. The problem lies in "how do you know this ever worked in real life?" because in this day and age, we don't tend to find teachers who actually have experience (frauds not withstanding). People blame sporterization of the MAs for this, but I say a great deal of the blame lies with the invention of the firearm and the subsequent changes in the skills needed for survival on the battlefield where MAs evolve. Our current crop of asian MAs for the most part have not only had their development frozen for the last century, but have lost much original content. MAs are living things that can't be transmitted through books or DVDs. This is why they needed an UNBROKEN chain of instructors who had used them to survive and could pass on those EXPERIENCES in application, not just a lot of classroom instruction from some famous master.

The flip side of the coin is, they also require students who have more serious motivations to practice than matches, health or meditation. Not wanting to sound misanthropic, but think about what kind of men must have practiced these arts 350 yrs ago, then compare them with the "I just want to defend myself legally and morally without hurting anyone and feel emotionally well-balanced afterwards" crowd today. It's like trying to fit a hairdryer into a holster.

Jason H., you hit the nail on the head in my (humble) opinion.

Chris, apparently I was writing as you were posting. You said:

"Limiting what you will do to get better only lessens your ability, and limits your scope."

The ultimate lesson to be learned on this forum, I feel.

well i dont know about the nerd thing, i havent seen any nerdy martial artists do anything but hang around on the wall and watch, but then again, i take judo at a college. it is the people who want to get better who actually get out there and experiment with their "martial science".

jason m struck, i didnt know you were so interested in me, sorry, i dont give autographs, so dont go pullin out your bra on me.

I can't speak for all internal schools or styles, but for what it's worth I have visited a number of internal (taiji,Bagua) schools as well as external schools (Shaolin Gong Fu, Karate)and have witnessed self delusion in both.

What characterises each is an untested ethic of invincibility. Taiji and Bagua people often believe that deeper relaxation or increased flexibility is the key to mastery. On the other hand many external schools focus on speed and power development as the route to success.

It is rare indeed to find a school of any kind that truly understands whole body connectedness or internal power as it is more frequently called.

My belief is that internal power development is the key to mastery of any martial art. As for conditioning, other than Zhan Zhuang and Shili the only other requirement is for aerobic fitness.

Quite often you hear internal stylists say that if someone looks muscular they almost certainly don't possess internal power. If this is what you believe, stop - it is completely and utterly wrong. You can get ripped and I mean totaly ripped without ever lifting a weight, or going to the gym, or using any other apparatus whatsoever.

As for the reason for learning yiquan (internal)it is the only exercise program/martial art, that I have come across that "does what it says on the tin"

ROBERT:I am rather disinterested in you. I was making a comment about how you totally misunderstood my point. I do my best to ignore you, and wait for you to go away. But, you never do.

Usually most people don't lump a Judo club at college into the same category as a fake BGZ master from Korea. Those are going to be two different sets of people, which is what we are talking about. You really are missing it, aren't you?

PS: you will pry my bra out of my cold, dead hands.

lol, you can keep your bra man.

"Karl Gotch (the greatest living catch wrestler) was asked 'what's the best submission hold?" his reply was conditioning.'".....

I wonder which is the best conditioner. Most leave my hair looking oily. It never crossed my mind that it could effect my martial ability.

Bob#2
(conditioning with you)

I forgot to mention that conditioning is a gradual process in my first post I gave one example of hitting the punch bag 200 times a day, but NOT full power, conditioning is a gradual process where you condition your entire body to be fitter and stronger and react faster. Any conditioning which is detrimental is a no go, you gradually increase. Keeping with the example of hitting a punch bag 200 times a day with your elbow, on day 1 start with 50 mediocre hit with the elbow, the next day if your elbow is too stiff to move you've overdone it, so next session drop down to 10 per day and suck it and see.

I'd hate to see any newbies thinking conditioning conditioning and screwing their bodies up.

I just needed to clear my conscience with that one.

Kind Regards

Jay