I'm curious why IMA/CMA/kung fu people, including many of you on this board, love Cung Le. What has he accomplished? Who has he fought? When I've seen him on TV he's usually beating some fat slob nobody. It seems to me he is hiding out in San Shou for fear of ever facing an accomplished opponent, or simply to be a big fish in a small pond and eventually become a MA celebrity like Frank Glamrock. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't understand the adoration and the implication that Cung Le's methods validate or demonstate the Chinese styles. From what I can see he's a mediocre kickboxer with some wrestling skills. His website doesn't even contain a CV, and K1 has little or nothing on their website as well. Again, am I missing something? PLease inform.

I have seen many Cung Le students fight and Rudy Otte... there is nothing missing in these fighters that were trained by Cung Le.

I normally would not be so bold as this... but, if you think he is a small fish in a big pond, then give him a call and arrange a match with him.

However,
He has fought the likes of Jason Yee and beat him.

I've seen Cung Le fight twice in San Jose and both times he showed a lot of fighting skill, endurance and intelligence. I also saw his students fight and they were damn good.

I saw him batter his opponent into the corner with a flurry of strikes, then do a spin 180, back mule kick kind of thing to the body and the guy just dropped. I think he KO'ed him. His throws were also well set up and applied.

I like San Shou, the striking combined with throwing makes for some action packed shows. I know the talent pool and money isn't really there, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't stick to it and help develop the sport. Boxing attracts more talent because of the $$ but I find it boring to watch compared to San Shou.

-JessO

I saw a picture of the kick. Its called a jumping back kick. Standard fare in taekwondo tournaments. I've tasted one to the face before. Not very fun. I've also gotten hit a few times with the regular back kick where you don't jump. That hurts a lot too. The usefullness of the kicks though are limited to a defensive move against a charging, attacking opponent who leaves himself open and as a knock down blow to someone retreating and hurt.

When I used to do taekwondo I could do a nice little 360 version with the front foot. I could also do a 360 hook kick and a 540 roundhouse kick. Pretty much devoid of usefullness but its not like I practiced them more than a few hours a month.

Sleepydragon,

I never suggested I would like to fight him. We both know what would happen if I was unfortunate enough to fight him in any venue. And to tell you the truth, I have not even seen many of his fights. However, what I've seen is not impressive, and his CV isn't even impressive enough to be posted on his own website, let alone other kickboxing websites that I checked. I was merely questioning why IMA/kung fu people think he's so great and why they (you?) use his success in san shou to validate the effectiveness of the Chinese styles in general. How do you think Le would fare against other fighters, even mediocre kickboxers like Marvin Eastman, Gary Goodrich, etc.?

540 degree roundhouse?? Is that anything like my stance where you put 30% of your weight on one leg, and 30% on the other?

Lol, its mainly something that looks flashy for breaking demonstrations. Lets say you are in your basic fighting stance. One leg forward and one leg back. You jump in the air, spinning around in a full circle before kicking with your originally back leg. Your leg travels a total of 540 degrees. Many people in taekwondo can do techniques such as this. The usefulness is about nil but its something fun to pratice on a rainy afternoon. Believe it or not the technique is rather easy to learn in comparison to learning the proper form for a regular roundhouse kck.

Willard,
I am not fimiliar with the fighters you listed, but I see the point you are getting at. I would say... not everyone is going to think Cung Le is a great fighter. I personally dont think Lenix Lewis is that great, but it is what it is.

However, I think many IMA look at people like Cung Le with awe because he opened the San Shou avenue in America.

I get it now. Mine was a sincere question. I just don't see the Kung Fu in his fighting. To be taken seriously, Kung Fu has to get a better representative than Cung Le. He fights in the special san shao matches at Las Vegas K1, but never fights any of the names in the K1 events. Looks bad.

BTW: For those interested in TKD and it's funky moves, look no further than this:

http://runsoccer.com/zboard/zboard.php?id=mov&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on &sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=4703

Please cut and paste into your browser and do not let this happen to you!

Willard, Cung Le is too small to fight in the K1. He weighs like 180 or so lbs. Most of the guys in the K1 are around 230 or more. The lightest guy is 215. Cung Le would get seriously injured if he fought. Michael MacDonald would break his collar bone and a few ribs. The 600 lbs guy would rip his head off with a right cross.

If Cung Le weighed around 220 or something then I'd say, "Get in there and fight you wuss!" But he doesn't and I don't blame him.

He can do IGF to cut weight and fight K1 Max for lighter fighters. They'd probably kick the •••• out of him as well. Or, like everyone else, he can do Nandralone to gain weight/mass. Look at Marvin Eastman. To paraphrase that wise pop icon Mr. Bobby Brown: It's his prerogative.

Cung Le's techs are combinations of TKD, Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, jijutsu and I assume whatever helps him kick, punch and throw. The name San Shou is the only traditionalism I could attribute to him and it is taken from Chinese martial arts. I didn't recognize any techniques of CMA yet in any of his matches.

That's not to say he isn't good at the above listed techniques; he obviously has some skill and talent but the name of his "sport" is misleading.

San Shou is free fighting which is sorta what Cung Le does but if I didn't know better I'd think a San Shou fighter would be doing CMA.

Cung Le once seriously over-starched several of my shirts.

I believe Cung Le stays in San Shou to give San Shou a face and a voice. How many "outsiders" would even know what San Shou is if it were not for Cung Le.

What does he have to prove by entering K-1 or MMA? I not only a big MMA fan, but MMAs is my field of combat. Why doesn't Randy Couture go to pro boxing? Why doesn't Roy Jones go to San Shou?

As far as representing CMA...if you fight long enough in a variety of different fields or arts or sports, you'll see there really is no distinction between "what works in a live resisting environment". The techniques and tactics are going to be the same.

Two wing chun fighters will eventually look like two kickboxers, two aikido fighters will eventually look like to wrestlers.

Cung Le uses "what works" and given the limitations of San Shou, what works looks like a combo of kickboxing and wrestling.

I have many instuctional San Shou and San Da VCDs from China and their technique looks a lot worst than Cung Le... to be honest the technique of the Chinese San Shou fighters look worst than my technique.

Why?

Because given the rules, the most efficient tactics resemble kickboxing, Judo and greco-wrestling.

They did not study real boxing, Muay Thai, Judo or real greco, Cung Le did...and I have.

Remember what San Shou really is: "Free fighting". What are the most efficent tactics in a free fight where ground fighting is not allowed and gloves are worn?

He plays within the rules. His advantage is his wrestling and Judo. Most San Shou fighters(like the pre-UFC days) still think think that good striking is enough to combat a good grappler. WRONG! You have to have a solid grappling background. Cung Le does. His opponents do not.

He fights the same way I would. I would love to fight Cung Le. My advantage would be my size. His advantage would be his condition. I don't know if I'd beat him, but it would be fun.

So, instead of wondering why doesn't he fight K-1 or MMA, question why aren't San Shou fighters improving their tactics and learning how to grapple and throw more efficiently to give him a better fight. They need to buy Tim's combat throwing book and video.

He just beat a very good fighter last week.

I've seen that guy fight on television before. I was impressed with his kicking power and his exhaustive training regimen and conditioning. What I was not impressed with was the combat sport he participated in. He worked this one poor sucker over by either kicking his opponent above the waist or faking the kick and going for a leg. He would also move in and grab a leg everytime his opponent would kick. His ability to react quickly and use this technique seemed like a foolproof method of winning these kind of competitions. What occurred to me was that by going for a leg so frequently, it was almost as if he was debunking the practicality of his own martial art. For him to really prove his skill, I would have to see in a muai tai competition. I just wonder if he's ever gotten a kick to the head when he goes for the leg. Again, a finally tuned athlete, but the competition itself is questionable.

"What occurred to me was that by going for a leg so frequently, it was almost as if he was debunking the practicality of his own martial art"

Going for the leg IS part of his own martial art.

"For him to really prove his skill, I would have to see in a muai tai competition."

I'd guess that if Cung Le decided to fight in a Muay Thai competition, he'd practice Muay Thai first.


As Backarcher pointed out above, the concept of San Shou is to use whatever works in a "free fight" under their particular rules. Even the fighters from China train with a heavy emphasis on boxing. Whatever will win the fight.

Hmmmm . . . interesting. So if taking your opponent to the ground is all it takes to accumulate some points in the competition, it would seem to me the easy thing to do would be to attack the legs everytime or tackle your opponent. Why waste energy and time kicking when you can simply move into your opponent and go for the take-down. That would certainly work in a free fight.

I guess if CL's opponents smartened up, they would use the identical technique on him.

"Why waste energy and time kicking when you can simply move into your opponent and go for the take-down. That would certainly work in a free fight. "

Exactly. It's been proven effective time and again in MMA competition, as well as on the street.

"I guess if CL's opponents smartened up, they would use the identical technique on him."

Right again. If Cung Le's opponents had his wrestling skills, he would not be able to take them down so easily, and they would have a much better chance to counter-attack rather than being thrown helplessly to the mat.

The point that some of you are msising is that Cung Le dominates the current professional San Shou circuit because he is better than his competition. He understands the sport he competes in and trains really hard to be the best at that sport. Once the rest of the guys start training as hard as he does on all the skills that are necessary, he won't be so obviously better than everyone else.