Thought I'd try and restart this discussion thread a bit, This may be the wrong thread / catagory, whatever but....

I was talking to a few people the other day, the discussion being why martial arts studios go out of business. Specifically San Soo Studios, but also generally martial arts studios.

I was in Santa Maria doing a job one day, it turned into an overnight deal, and on the way to the motel I noticed a new martial arts studio, Thought to myself, that It would be something to do that evening so I went back after checking in, figuring that I'd sit and watch another art for a bit. Sure enough, I found the place was already out of business. It couldn't have been in business for more than six months and already folded.

So the question I pose to you is, What are the successful studios doing that the unsuccessful ones are not doing?

Jimmy had to call his studio Karate Kung Fu San Soo to get people to walk in, so is that something all san soo studios should do?

I'm sure we've all seen it, New guy shows up, they go awhile, they drop out, all ranks, all colors, both genders.... Out of say ten people that start the same day, what do you think? One or Two keep going? kind of depressing isn't it?


Scott Cargill

http://sansoo.skiosk-esd.com

Hey Scott,
There are beau-coup reasons why martial-arts studios come & go (even the best of them). Here are some:
- LOCATION (LOCATION, LOCATION)
- ADVERTISEMENT (POOR -, LACK OF -)
- RENT (GENERALLY HIGH IN CALIFORNIA)
The above 3 items are often inter-related & apply to any business (not all martial-arts instructors are adept at business; this can be viewed as both a "good" thing & as a "bad" thing). You mentioned a reason or two in your message above, & I wrote several others in a previous posting. I will repeat:
DON'T FORGET THE ALMIGHTY FAD! "Karate" was (& is still) most likely used (by "Jimmy" & others) due to a current fad (which somewhat equals a public "understanding". In the 1930's the word "karate" on a business sign wouldn't have led the average American to understand that it was advertising a hand-to-hand combat studio. Back then "boxing" would have caught the eye & given the passer-by a general "understanding" of the business. Likewise, "wrestling," or both "boxing & wrestling" would have caught one's eyes while "judo" would have not conveyed any message to the general public. But by the 40's & 50's "judo" became a household word as it was a fad in the states by then; so then using "judo" on a business sign would convey some "understanding" to the passer-by.
"Karate" became the fad of the 60's & 70's ("kung fu" likewise in the 70's & 80's; etc., etc.). I've seen (over the 30+ years that I've been looking at studio signs) many "changes" of names (without necessarily changing the art being taught) -- changes that reflect the current fad (& even fads of old 'cause the "recognition" lingers after the fad dissapates). It's common to see "kung-fu karate" & now "karate/ju-jitsu" (or all of 'em together). Kung Fu San Soo most likely stayed the same while undergoing a name change for commercial purposes.
Fads keep martial-arts instructors supplied with sufficient numbers of fly-by-night students. Look how many instructors are CURRENTLY making ends meet by advertising "Tae-Bo" instruction, or (more generically) "aerobic kickboxing." Isn't "Tae Bo" the new fad? It leans towards being more "jazzercise" (remember that one?) than it does being martial instruction; but the average joe doesn't know, & he's probably more interested in losing weight than in gaining sound-self-defense knowledge anyway (& he probably THINKS that he's doing both with "aerobic kickboxing". Most (if not all) martial arts are aerobic in nature, once you know how to move & pick up the pace, do multiple reps. (of forms, techniques, training exercises), etc.; but generally people don't make that connection (even though your average boxer does!).
Look at Tim's studio -- if you can find it. It doesn't have any sign on the actual suite; rather there's a sign out near the road that reads "Shen Wu." I'd bet that few people who see that sign even have a clue as to the nature of the business, & those who do often don't find the suite. Now some instructors like this -- some consider finding them as "passing the first test." To each their own. Some instructors "prostitute" their art (or other arts) to stay afloat, others close down -- it can be a difficult business to those who put their art first (esp. when there isn't a concurrent supporting fad). Many good instructors teach in their garages or in public parks (so they don't place pressure upon themselves to "sell".
I hope this helps. I'll stop now. {)

Excellent answer Mike!

Scott,
I started teaching in my garage like Mike said 20 yrs ago. My school has grown slowly. In Oregon the population base is much smaller. Roseburg's population is 20,000 add in the surrounding areas within say a half hour drive and I have approx. 100,000 to draw from. Not much compared to So Cal. For 17 yrs I worked another job as well as teaching. Only the last three years have I been able to teach full time. It is not an easy business. Not all instructors are willing to make the sacrifice's necessary to teach above all else. The only martial art instructors that make big buck's are either famous or excellent promoters or both.
All to often within that group you will find unscrupulous liar's that will say anything to get a contract signed!

>So the question I pose to you is, What are the successful studios doing that the unsuccessful ones are not doing?

I would have to qualify what you mean by success.
To me success is the progressive realization of worthwhile goals. My goal's have been progressively realized, therefor I feel quite successful! I do what I love for a living! What more could I ask for? I think the schools that don't make it either don't have a good product i.e. quality teaching, or the instructor is not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to stay in business when it get's slow and it will get slow. I think for both Tim and I one big difference is in the fact that we taught in garages and built a solid student base before getting a commercial location. Many of the schools you are talking about get the location and try to build the school. "If you build it they will come" not necessarily! Anyway, there's my 2 cents. Hey Tim, what do you say?

Bob

funny side note,

I woman I used to date studied at Billy Blank's
(now Tae Bo) school about 10 years ago... at that
time he was calling his class "KAROBICS"

really.

Scott -
The problem that I saw in San Soo was the way it was taught. The instructor comes out and teaches a lesson and then disappears. The student is then left being helped learning the technique by another student. The instructor expects the student to approach him for help. Most new students will not approach the instructor for help. I saw many people that were frustrated by this teaching technique. They then left after the first month. I can't tell you how many times I saw this scenario while training in San Soo.

Scott;
I was interested to know if you have any problem with the authenticity aspect of San Soo as told in San Soo lore? You never posted an opinion about the messages posted before you first appeared.

Honestly I try to stay away from that end of it.

I've placed three versions of the history of san soo on my web site, actually two, one was the one that the women of san soo uses. the second was the official doctrine handed down to me, basically the party line, and the third was a piece dan hoffman wrote that spread some light on that time frame.

I honestly think that you're looking at a bunch of "Styles" that originated in the same time period, in the same general area of china, though separate I'm sure they cross bred them a bit. I mean think of it in this light, a bunch of monks are in a monastery, they travel from the monastery to the village to collect provisions, they're attacked enough that they HAVE to learn to defend themselves, so they gather fighting knowledge, either they create it from scratch, or they duplicated things they've seen, most likely both occurred. They develop what they call choi li hoi fut hung, or what it ended up being called.

As I said I stay clear of that end of it, I'm not a historian, have no desire to travel to china, and never met Jimmy. There are enough versions out there for me to decide that I won't know the truth if it jumped up and bit me, so no need to bother.

I know that for ME San Soo is the answer, the studio that I learn at is a tight knit group; Master Phil is a great guy, as are all of the instructors. And best of all we're taught all of the important aspects omitting none of it even if Phil has to paraphrase the technique taught with "This is probably something I would never use but I promised I'd teach you everything I've learned over the years"

ONE thing I have noticed that I find encouraging. last year another san soo studio in town closed its doors, most of their people have shown up at our studio, For me I was encouraged by the fact that though their people learned things a little different than we do they STILL used the same techniques that I've been taught. I've seen some tapes and recognized techniques used, so if nothing else I know that the art IS being passed down somewhat consistently.....


Dunno if this answered your question, but it's late and I ramble around this time of night...

Scott -
Did the San Soo studio that went out of business teach the way I described in my message? This was the way Jimmy taught and the way all Woo association studios that I was aware of taught. Frank Woolsey studios were one on one with instructors constantly revolving from student to student. Does the studio you train at teach differently?

I'm not sure why Bakersfield San Soo actually went under, I never made it over to their studio. I can say that I Do enjoy having their people working with us, Master Mark Goodson learned under Andre Savage and Al Ruben and happens to be a nice guy to boot

Typically East Hills runs along these lines.

Beginning to Intermediate classes.
Start the class with forms for 10-15 minutes
Teaching a group technique, depending on how well everyone does with it determines weather or not a second technique is taught that night. The students work with each other, switching off so that different body types are worked with, With the instructors circulating helping each student.

Advanced class starts off with free style for 5 - 10 minutes, then one or two techniques are taught, everyone works on the techniques for most of the night. with Forms taught the last 5 - 10 minutes of class. Advanced students are expected to work on forms on their own more so than the beginning / intermediate students.

I open the studio on Saturdays for an open workout, everyone is encouraged to come in and work on whatever they feel they need to work on. For the most part we spend the first 30 minutes working on form, then anyone wanting to work on technique or free style goes at it...

Scott,

I studied under Andre for a short time, back when his school was in North Hollywood. He was an enjoyable teacher and had some interesting students. I remember one guy who was missing his legs... he had the grip of an alligator and would use his chair against you or bounce out of it and come at you like a bad dream. (I'm not kidding.. the guy was brutal). Andre had some cool drills we used to do, where 3 or 4 people would circle and attack one person... that person would do their best to counter the nearest attacker and
use that attacker to thwart the next.

I think I remember Mark too (if he's bald and on the heavy side for his height) he seemed like a feisty character.

Andre's teaching style was much like
Tim's; funny and practical. He was very 'external' in his approach...
I think Andre would like studying with Tim.

Darn... I need to set up an account so I can edit.

I should have written "Andre's teaching style was like Tim's: funny and practical. However, Andre's approach seemed very external to me. I think he would benefit studying with Tim."

Nope, Mark is tall, moderate build, with brown hair, there's a few photo's of him on our site.

http://sansoo.skiosk-esd.com

Hey Bob,
Re: your question:

"So the question I pose to you is, What are the successful studios doing that the unsuccessful ones are not doing?

I would have to qualify what you mean by success.
To me success is the progressive realization of worthwhile goals."

Your qualification is an important point as not all instructors view success by the mass accumilation of Federal Reserve Notes. I know of instructors that won't teach a prospective student if they don't like him or her, or will stop teaching a student if they no longer like that student -- no matter how many FRNs are waved about (some don't even teach for FRNs).
Because of this qualification to the question, the only answer is that I don't know the specifics, but in general the successful instructors are pursuing their happiness (thanks Tommy J.) & finding it. {)

Mike,

Forgive me if I sound ignorant, but who is Tommy J.?

Bob

I gage success as being throughly feared by
all of my students. Knowing they'll show up week in and week out even though they are so frightened they sometimes wet themselves when I come over to correct their form- that is absolute success.

I'd do it for free, just for the rush, but the various retirement homes insist on paying me for my time... the losers.

I've got to go, I've got a class to teach.
Bob #2

Hey Bob,
"Tommy J." = Thomas Jefferson (co-writer of Declaration of Independence & other patriot-type stuff). Though he spent the Revolutionary War Years hiding from the British (er, as a non-combatant -- he had a price on his head as it was), his words inspired many to take up arms in defiance of government-sponsored tyranny (a modern example of Sun Tsu's methods, eh?). {)

Thanks Mike,

I know who Thomas Jefferson is, I just didn't put the name Tommy J. together with "pursuing happiness". You are a bit of a cunning linguist.

Bob

Hey Bob # 2, you crossed the line man ... I can't believe what you did. My grandpa said you crush his face into the ground using one of your ba gua throws last Saturday. He said he wasn't even in the class. He was just walking by with his walker when u just grap him, carry him into your class(he can't walk without his walker) and then use him for a demo. That's just cruel man. Just wait til I get my ass to Santa Barbara. Then I'll Bagua or what ever u did to my granpa on you. You're sick man. The guy is 93. What were u thinking.

And just wait man, ... u'll c. I'm not gonna let u pick on another old person. Gosh ... they're at the end of their lives ... can't u just let them die peacefully. I think I'm gonna buy them all stun guns so when u come by ... they'll shock the shit out of you.

I think u need help. I think that accident u were in cost u more then your feet. I think you losted it, man. Really man, you need help. If I weren't so pissoff and planning to rip a chuck of you off, I'll help u find a good mental doc to treat you. Too bad u not gonna have a chance now...

Anonym-ass,

See, the fact that your 93-year old grandfather mistook the lower single whip throw I did on him to be Ba Gua instead of Tai Ji proves that he had it coming.

He was looking at me in an attempt to intimidate me and was clutching his walker as if he could
use it as a weapon in the blink of an eye. You
have to watching with those old Vietnamese guys... They pretend to be decrepit but then they attack like an angry chipmunk! He's lucky I was in
a gentle mood.

'let them die in peace' what are you, crazy? Old folks should view death as a relief... as an end to suffering. That's what I do- I make old people look forward to dying- yet prepare them to take a couple of punks out with them just to keep
things interesting.

I've got to go, I have a class to teach.
Bob #2

A little broken english and he is assumed to be
Vietnamese? Your pathetic.