About Karate and danzan ryu jujitsu

Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Arts - Miscellaneous: About Karate and danzan ryu jujitsu

   By 1 (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:46 am: Edit Post

The Beginning of Danzan-Ryu
While in Hilo, Okazaki mastered various Jujutsu techniques being taught at the Yoshin- Ryu, Iwaga-Ryu and Kosogabe-Ryu schools. He then combined these systems with Karate techniques from the Ryukyu Islands (Okinawa) and the knife techniques of the Phillipines to form the Danzan-Ryu school of Jujutsu. Danzan are the kanji (Chinese characters) that denote the Hawaiian islands, thus Danzan-Ryu is the Hawaiian school of Jujutsu. According to Kufferath, one of Okazaki's most influential instructors, Wo Chung, called Hawaii "Danzan", so Okazaki dedicated part of the system to Chung's memory. Chung taught Okazaki Mushi-Jutsu, which is the art of boxing withintent to kill, as Okazaki translated it. In 1917, he also studied the Hawaiian secret killing art of Lua under the tutelage of David Kainhee, a native Hawaiian. This training took place in the district of Puna on the island of Hawaii. He also studied western boxing and wrestling, and he learned dirk throwing from a Spaniard. Okazaki incorporated all of these arts into his system.

In addition to the martial systems, Okazaki studied all the resuscitation arts of Kappo and Seifukujutsu, the Japanese art of physical adjustment and restoration. He was a firm believer that one of the virtues of Jujutsu was its techniques of restoration from disabling blows.

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:59 pm: Edit Post

Mark Hatfield,

This is in response to your first post from a long time ago that I just read.

"It was the very rare karate master who still practiced after age 50. Advanced practice of karate was often thoroughly mixed with White Crane boxing from China. Even now, some of the recognized masters will tell you that as your practice develops over decades, it becomes 'softer' and quite different that what is taught to beginners."

Maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate right now but I have to say that:

Most of the traditional 'hard' style martial artists I've seen don't get 'softer' but their technique just falls apart and turns to crap. There was one old man who really scared me though, the father of my two martial art teachers. He was korean and the chairman of techniques for the kukkiwon (really big school in korea that controls the largest tkd association in the world, official tkd). He was like 65 or older but he ran a class one day when visiting and he really knows his stuff and had a lot of power in his techniques.

The softness in those who truly master hard martial arts is not because of "soft" principles. It is because they have mastered the timing of hardening there body during the strike and know how to get every bit of strength out of there bodies and into the technique possible. Any extraneous movement is removed and there technique looks like it requires little effort.

When a good boxer punches his opponent it usually doesn't look like he strained did it? The movement is smooth and refined.

You also have to rememeber that rank in martial arts actually means little about the person's fighting ability. I have seen many "masters" who have trained under people with genuine skill. But I have been very puzzled as to how they could achieve such a rank when I can easily see flaws in there techniques (most books I've seen by "masters" make me laugh because I've seen colored belts with better technique)


Technique is *VERY* important in grappling from my own very limited experience with it. Much less so than with striking. In striking the skill part is a lot easier to get down because punching and general hitting and such is easy (at least it was for me) to learn. The timing, accuracy and distance parts are what seperates the good from the great.

That's my 2 cents. Love it or hate it.

   By Kenneth Sohl on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:08 pm: Edit Post

Mont, you may find that one important aspect of hitting harder is learning to relax more between strikes. Anyone can tense their entire body, but to instantly relax after delivering a powerful blow in order to immediately make their next move powerfully takes much practice, hence Mark's reference to advanced practitioners. Constant tension, as beginners generally have, slows one down and robs one of power (though you probably know this). Seems to me the grappling arts make the most use of "soft" principles. As for the delineation between "internal" and "external", that's a bunch of horsecrap.

   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:04 pm: Edit Post

Mont. Your continued research will show you that karate began to degrade in the late 1800s. Masters of that time wrote of their concerns as it was beginning to become a sport and loosing combat effectiveness. It seemed to degrade further with each generation of instructors, then especially when it was taught to non-japanese.

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 09:47 am: Edit Post


When I said that they learn how to tense there body at just the right time I was trying to also infer that they remained completely relaxed prior to that point (minimum tension).

Mark Hatfield,
Interesting point you make. I have not really studied the degration of karate in the late 1800s but it doesn't suprise me at all. Wasn't it the founder of modern Karate-do (I forget his name, excuse me, Funknoshi or something :-)) who said that he created a form of exercise and not a form of combat?

In reality, when I fight, I do not practice, Hsing-I, Jiujitsu, taekwondo, karate, or whatever. I practice Mont style gonna kick ya ASS! I take what I like

(my boxing+hsing-I+karate+Mont punch is just sick when it hits, the first time I hit someone with it *lightly* he was wearing a 1 inch chest protector and I had on gloves but he still went to the ground gasping for breath, i think if my heavy bag could talk it would curse me)

modify it to my body type

(taller, thinner build, weighs 172 but looks like I weigh 140 when I have a shirt on)

and then use it in accordance to my tactics, strategies and such.

You guys made some good points.

   By Tim on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 12:07 pm: Edit Post

"(my boxing+hsing-I+karate+Mont punch is just sick when it hits, the first time I hit someone with it *lightly* he was wearing a 1 inch chest protector and I had on gloves but he still went to the ground gasping for breath, i think if my heavy bag could talk it would curse me)"

You gotta love this kid!

   By Michael Andre Babin on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:05 pm: Edit Post

Well, if we don't. he'll show us his "killing air" while pummeling us with his "fists of fury"...

At least he seems to have a sense of humour, so maybe there's hope for him.

And, as a real plus, he's not surfing the internet for photos of protruding rectums like Bob #2!

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:27 pm: Edit Post

My current training goal is to be able to hit the heavy bag hard enough with my punches to make it hit the ceiling. When I punch it right now it folds around my hands and is lifted several inches vertically as well as being driven several feet back.

This is because I know hit with "FULL BODY POWER." I really like that phrase. When I was one of those silly "external" karate fighters who only hit with sectional power and no leg drive I could shatter wooden boards with enough power to break several while I held them with one hand and hit with the other. (Called speed breaking for those who don't bother with breaking boards, I consider it nothing more than a cantrip for those who have skill in fighting)

People were scared to hold boards for me. People were scared to spar with me even though I never fight nearly at full capacity (the master always would stop the fight if I tried to beat my opponent). I wasn't allowed to spar with anything but blackbelts 6 months after I started (when I had one of those silly orange belts). And no one has ever knocked me down during sparring at school despite that I've gotten caught with a few bombs over the years because of plain old lazyness.

I've only gotten hit 3 times that I can remember that actually hurt, the time the 2x national champ hit my solar plexus with a back kick but I finished the fight with him in one corner of the ring as I pounded his head with kicks. The time my friend who was a puerto rican junior national champ years ago before he did boxing and became a gymnastics instructor hit my nose with a jumping back kick as I drove him out of the ring with a barrage of kicks and punches, we both had a good laugh afterwards because it was like something from a movie. And the time he hit me with plain old back kick in the solar plexus as I got over aggressive and lazy during the fight.

Someone once said, "Mont, you should become a professional kickboxer or something." After I was feeling energetic one day and avoided all his kicks and punches with fancy footwork alone for around 3 minutes. People have come up to me and said, "Your hook kick is amazing, how did you get it so good?" after I had learned it a few months before. (I practiced it around a thousand times a day at home for a week)

I'm feeling bored right now so maybe I'll go outside, find some concrete blocks or some rocks or something and break them.

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:43 pm: Edit Post

I own "Fists of Fury" of DVD. Not too bad of a movie, a little silly in some parts. Down right laughable in other parts. Bruce Lee is ok at in his acting but its nothing to nominate for an emmy. I like the "Chinese Connection" and "Enter the Dragon" and the real footage of "The Game of Death" a lot better.

I always thought it would be fun a create a new martial art full of b.s. I'd name all the techniques things like "Fly Demon Monkey of Doom!" "Racoon hand attack" and "Divine God Speed Strike" All the students would wear uniforms like those the shaolin temple people wear (orange pjs). They all would have to wear little head bands too and every time they bow, or do anything they would have to pump their right fist in the air and shout "Tang Soo!" (I was at a little tournament once where everyone did this, needless to say it quickly got unbearable). I think I'd call it Hsingyi Jeet Kwon karafu-do. The school's flag would be a picture of my head with a crown on it and all the students would have to recite some stupid pledge at the beginning and end of class about how they will only use their skill for good, repsect, courage, yada yada yada. What do you think? I'll also wear chinese clothes from the 1800s mutter things in made of chinese near my students and fake phone calls with people like Chuck Norris, Tim, Jackie Chan and the Gracies. I'll also hire a trophy company to make tons of huge trophies with from fake tournaments I've won and put them in the school's waiting room and my office. I'll also make a fake photo with me, Bruce Lee, Tim, Jackie Chan, Chuck Norris, and a whole bunch of chinese, korean and Japanese guys. What do you think?


I think I'll start poisoned iron palm training just to annoy you!

   By Idle Observer (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 05:14 pm: Edit Post

Yeah... go for it M.F.C. A legend in his own mind.

I'll donate $50 for his airfare to Kaliforniya so we can watch him kick Meynard's butt.

Then he can have bOb2 for dessert.

Where can I make my donation???

   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 05:58 pm: Edit Post

Mont. It was Kano who admitted that his creation (judo) was more for sport that budo ( a warrior art). Funikoshi, the 'father' of modern karate further stripped his art down so it could be taught to junior high school students and that is the standard known today.

More recently, either Nakayama, or Nishiyama commented that now karate is good only for fighting against other karate, although some good moves are still in the traditional katas.

   By Kenneth Sohl on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 07:12 pm: Edit Post

Mont, come on, do we really need yet another "master" and his franchise?

   By Kenneth Sohl on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 07:18 pm: Edit Post

BTW, Mont's idea reminds me of an old movie ("Kill! Kill! Kill!" I think was its name) where all these mindless karate zombies ran around wearing colored gis and every time their leader came around, they'd cross their fists over their head and shout "Marduke!" I think they had a banner, too.

   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit Post

There was a martial arts teacher in my hometown who used to sit on a wooden throne at one end of his training hall for belt ceremonies and those receiving a higher belt had to approach him on their knees while everyone watched to get accredited to a new level.

There's another fellow here who has invented his own system and used to play an audio tape of himself barking out instructions for the beginners class instead of teaching it in person. Although there was a large photo of him in a central location on a wall of his school.

   By Kenneth Sohl on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 04:51 pm: Edit Post

Actually, maybe it isn't a bad idea to create some esprit' de corps. You Shen Wu guys could all wear Gargoyle sunglasses and black gis with silver racing stripes tucked down into jack boots. Every time Tim or a senior instructor walked by, you'd thump your fist to your chest in a romulan-style salute and shout "Shen Wu!" in unison.

   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 06:45 pm: Edit Post

Janet Jackson already used your idea for uniforms in her old video "Rhythm Nation" The nipple rings are a more recent addition...

   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 10:48 pm: Edit Post

You guys are way off base. Mont needs to have a challenge match with Tim then he can take over the Shen Wu school. Then talk about nipple piercings.

Wait a minute. Wouldn't the nipple rings disturb the chi circulation?

   By Kenneth Sohl on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 06:48 am: Edit Post

He'd have to first earn the right to fight Tim by beating his underlings such as Bob#2, Meynerd, etc. in a series of brutal deathmatches held at stonehenge. How about "nipple-chucks"?

   By Michael Andre Babin on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 08:53 am: Edit Post

We'd better stop this discussion before Bob#2 posts internet photos of someone whose nipples and/or rings were torn off in just such a match!

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 12:18 pm: Edit Post

ROFL ROFL ROFL. The sad thing is that I'd most likely get a lot of followers if I started that fake system. I really really like the whole throne idea. But wood is so drab. I'll have it covered in gold and gems that my followers have to give me as tribute. Seriously, if I had to crawl on my knees to some guy in a throne to get a new belt ("ooh! purple! I'm so honored!") I'd just go to a boxing gym and return a year later to beat the guy to an ugly purple color. ("Keep the belt BITCH! It matches your bruised skin.")

If I fought a challenge match with Tim he'd use my scalp to mop up my blood off the floor before Bob #2 took pictures, posted them on the web site and tried to do something sick to my corpse. I consider myself good. But not at the level of Tim. But I do like the idea of brutal death matches at stonehenge against Bob #2 and Meynerd :-) We'd need someone to film them and sell the videos. The winner would get 60% of the profit and get a year's worth of free lessons at Shen Wu.

And I did hurt my little pinky knuckle breaking rocks in my yard. Not broken or swollen but a little sore. I'll have to use my old 2 knuckle punch for a while with my right hand. No 3 knuckle vertical fist for now.

I'm also writing a book called, "Praise Mont, the Bruce Lee of the 21st Century" You can pre-order your copies through Paladin Press by calling 666-891-5555 for only $99 (Just like that dead karate guy's books go for in Blackbelt magazine) The book also includes a lot of full color pictures of me. A kit to insert your own picture into the book (so you can claim you know me to all your friends and later make money off it) is included if you pre-order. You will also get a life-size poster of me to bow down and worship before you practice every day (a $30 value!).

   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 05:51 pm: Edit Post

I like that picture business, it's really a good idea.

   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 07:44 am: Edit Post

Don't forget to take some shots of you with a wild-eyed expression pounding your fist into some fool's face who is grimacing in apparent pain. Use that for the cover.

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 09:22 am: Edit Post


Excellent idea! I'll also fill pages and pages of the book with my unique self-defense moves which have absolutley no chance of working against any attacker except maybe one with the brain of a rabbit and the reflexes of a sloth.

I'll have a coupon in the book to get $300 off my book full of ancient oriental herbal concoctions. I'll have the good old Dit Da Jow, some poison iron palm recipies, strength and speed building recipes and my favorite.

"The same recipe used to make fighters bullet proof during the Boxer Revolution in China!" (Or whatever it was called, that part of history class was years ago) Its guarenteed to make you just as bullet proof as the special undergarmets Mormons wear. I'm not kidding about this, some wear union jack style undergarmets and claim they make them bullet proof and stuff, my uncle used to live in Utah. One time he said to one of them, "So if I go to my truck and get my 306 and shoot you in the chest you'll be ok?" The guy backed out of the offer.

   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 04:20 pm: Edit Post

Why the union jackk? And what is the story behind that? I never met a mormon girl who wore such undergarments.

   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 05:49 pm: Edit Post


I don't know the specifics. All i know is that some mormons do wear them.

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