I have studied these arts and am currently studying White Crane kungfu, and am a much better martial artist and a much better person for it. I think that karate and taekwondo waste too much energy in pointless rock solid stances and "iron bar" striking. Can anyone prove to me that there is a point to being inflexible in comparison to the relaxed techniques of kungfu?

Taekwondo and Karate are good martial arts and serve many purposes. If you ask whether or not they are the most sophisticated and efficient, the answer is obviously not. But to counter something you said. Good karate is not inflexible. Find any really good experienced karate or taekwondo person and you will see relaxed full-body power. They just go about it a different way and frankly take longer to get there than the internal arts.

Thanks,
Richard

I agree with Richard that they are both good as building blocks and few masters are excellent. The basic skills can be gotten by all.

I have seen inflexibility on both sides and it seems the internal side may be more resisstant to common sense of hard training as opposed to special masters and magic force strikes that is alluded to frequently.

A truely expert martial artist is a rare beast indeed and the few examples that I have seen over the years all share more similarities of posture and body mechanics than there are differences. Whether they were from the internal or external side of the stylistic fence.

Judge the individual, not the lineage or style as all of the latter have both their strengths and weaknesses ...

Michael is right.

It's not about style, rather the man.

If you are talking about a waste of energy for NHB, it could be...but so are most traditional Kung Fu styles.

If you are talking about a waste of energy for a real 15 second streetfight...well, no style is better or worse for that, too many varibles.

If you are referring to the intrinsic spiritual benefits....you can get that in any discipline, even yoga.

It all boils down to the fighter, not the style he fights out of.

BJJ is the best cause Gracies proved it in the ring, and JKD is second Bruce Lee prove it in many movies!

It is unfortunately true... most Karate is done hard and incorrect. The true essence of Karate is not hard... somehow it has been interpreted that hard means inflexible or not mobile. A good Karateka moves as easily as a Hsing I artist.

Ex. Goju Ryu(the way of hard and soft)... but everything is done hard, they even break their own motto of " block soft and hit hard". I studied Goju for many years and it was all hard and it was not until I studied Wing Chun and Hakka styles that I realized what was missing in Karate, then I found Tai Chi and Hsing I... puzzle solved.

Dittos Rich. When learning about 'internal arts of China I realized the same thing. Also understood more about comments that the karate of the 1800s regarding how diferent it was. How it was more fluid and practical.

Hi Rich, Mark,

Yep, I found Wing Chun because I was looking for a better karate

I have since become fascinated with Taiji and Xingyi for more complicated reasons, but still you just gotta wonder why more karate people don't realize what they are missing in the true nature of their own arts.

"...but still you just gotta wonder why more karate people don't realize what they are missing in the true nature of their own arts."

I think that most people, in most styles practice as they were taught.

If something was missing from their training, students very often will not have the background or experience to realize the fact. If they do realize something is missing and ask their teacher, the normal response is the "if I don't teach it, you don't need it" nonsense. In addition, most students don't have the desire or motivation they need to learn otherwise.

Tim,
Great point... I was always asking questions in Karate that were not getting answered... other than " why do you need to know that or that is not needed etc." I always wondered and asked, why do we spend so much time doing kata and never learn the applications and apply them for practical training and work them in a empty hand sparring scenario(like chi sao, push hands etc.) Then it hit me, they dont know or they sort of know, but would rather spar as a kickboxer and make lots of grunting noises and that is where the art is being lost in my opinion.

Rich, exactly! I always wondered why we moved one way when doing kata, then all of that went out the window for sparring. Are you familiar with the Hakka Lung Ying system? Supposedly, that was one of the influences of Gojuryu. Like most true fighting arts, it has no blocks, but its many hammerfists and limb destructions have been misconstrued by modern Goju stylists as "blocks" apparently.

I love when you point something like this out to a karate instructor, and he'll say "oh, we have that too", and he demonstrates some watered down derivative technique (like you say, they sort of know) that begs the question: then why don't you train that way?

Karate kata, and Taekwondo poomsae, have "certain techniques" added in there systems, for nothing else than preformance and coordination. Taekwondo is more centered on fancy kicking and footwork, while Karate is more focused on striking and takedowns.

Karatedo{way of the bare hand} is hybrid art from southern Shaolin White crane systems.

The initial training in both arts is for streching and tensing for aggressive attack or defense. Because of this training type,they build the external body and muscular strength to a high level over time and practice.

Unlike the IMA which initialy builds strength from the inside out. These EMA build strength from the outside in{eventually}.It could take years or even decades to learn even the simplest breathing tech.'s for these arts {depending on the system, or teacher of course} but if you feel as though you are wasting energy or time, try cross reasearching White crane and Qigung first then Neigung later.


I think you will find it benificiant

Kenneth,
I have seen the Lung Ying system, but have no real knowledge of it, other than it is a great style along with S. Mantis and Bak Mei.

I actually had a discussion on time with a Goju instructor and we got on the subject of Kakie( goju sticky hand) and the various blocks they use.

I tried to explain that a block is not a block , but a nerve hit, arm destruction etc. not blunt force stopping blunt force.... needless to say I realized it was a loosing conversation and realized how lucky I am to be skilled in certain arts.

I have a great respect for Karate and the way they train. However, I can now say I have been to both sides of the road and the Chinese road is more beneficial with the right teacher.

A good style may only have poor representatives in you area or a stirling example of a style may be your first contact with it and then every other representative that you subsequently meet is a bitter disappointment.

However, it is also true that some styles have become less "user-friendly" in general than others ... really good karate is as rare (in Canada, anyway) as any other traditional style.

Find a good teacher that suits your needs and abilities and train till you have to find another teacher or can stand on your own two feet martially -- this is not usually the matter of a few months or even years.

Good point Michael. It reminded me how fortunate I was in the military the the leaders in my first assignments were good, others later were no so. It did greatly help my miliitary experience.

I have a good sized collection of material of Ba Qua. The first item was of Luo. There are quite a few others, where if I had viewed one of them first, I never would have gone any further.

Rich, one comment on Goju Kakie (and I've seen some chinese push hands like this also): They seem to push back and forth, until one participant suddenly tries a move the other is trying to feel for. Once the move is executed and (hopefully) neutralized, they return to the back and forth pushing until the next attempt.

What bull! In our Jook Lum Chi Mor Sao, such "rolling arms" is just a beginning drill to introduce the practitioner to the flexible absorption of incoming force. Over time, as you accumulate an arsenal of techniques into your reactions and your push hands becomes faster and more sponaneous, you never revert but continue on towards freefighting. Rolling arms at this point would be a crutch for the practitoner to gain time while he thinks of something else. Thinking is counterintuitive to Chi Sao, and you won't get such a breather in a real fight. Training this way teaches you to "lock" the mind when it should be freeflowing.

Agree and the points I made to my friends as well, they just thought it was silly slappy Chinese stuff.

Then I asked... if it is so silly and slappy, why cant you hit me?

And it had nothing to do with the fact I was running away from them.

Lol, and probably what I'll be doing soon from a bunch of enraged goju practitioners

Beautiful, Ken!