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" What about the time when a fist or elbow or knee slips through hard despite ting jin, yielding and deflection? "

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Tom writes:

"What specific aspects of taijiquan training develop close-range protection against hard body blows?"

It's all tied together. You can't do Taiji without peng jin; you can't do pengjin right without reeling silk movement, which by necessity *must* use the dantien physically; reeling silk movement has a training aspect that adds to the great strength of Taiji and gives "cover" at the same time.

It's sort of like "using the dantien" above. If someone says "I know 12 really nifty Taiji forms, all the applications, I can fight and win a lot of fights, etc., but we just don't physically develop the dantien in our style... they just told me that they don't really do Taiji, because it's inescapable about developing and using the dantien. All these things are inextricably tied together, including the "cover" aspects.


" What about the time when a fist or elbow or knee slips through hard despite ting jin, yielding and deflection? What does Chen Xiaowang do in a case like that?"

Well, that's a bit like the question, "do you still beat your wife?"? It's assumptive.


"I'm not doubting Chen Xiaowang's abilities at all. It's just that he doesn't have any real fighting record. The only time I've ever heard about him being confronted physically and dealing with it was at a seminar when a Muay Thai practitioner began throwing some hard kicks. Chen Xiaowang dealt with that with a straight-in charge and fajin that dumped the guy on his ass. Chen moved so fast that the Muay Thai man didn't really follow what happened before he hit the ground. There was no ting jin or yielding there. It simply wasn't a situation where the issue of Chen being able to take some hard hits arose."

And yet I've heard of a number of fights and confrontations that CXW has been in. This one is easy to handle. Go meet him at a seminar and challenge him if you doubt he has any ability. Trust me, he's taken plenty of challenges. I don't think I'm one of those sycophant morons that takes a light touch from a teacher and bounces myself backward shreiking... I think he's the real deal. I've tried to get my shots in and wound up face-first on the garage floor or hard on the grass a number of times. Give it a try, in the spirit of adventure. :^)

"Xingyiquan practitioners expect to receive a certain amount of hard contact simply because of the minimal defensive angles and charging to take the opponent's center that characterize much of that art."

Well, that's sort of the standard generalization. What little Xingyi I know involves a lot more subtlety than that and there's no where near the brute bullishness in good Xingyi that so many westerners think.

"Some baguazhang teachers I've spoken to say that bagua specifically trains evasion and deflection, not really being able to take a hard direct hit. What does taijiquan train for in this department?"

Well, Bagua, Xingy, and Taiji all "hit with the dantien". In other words, if you have a bunch of people at a tournament who do all different styles, applications, forms, etc., of "Bagua", but none of them know how or have developed the store-and-release skills of neijin and the dantien, then they don't really do Bagua. What I'm saying is that Bagua also develops the same sort of cover, *when it's done right*. Just like everything else in the West, most Bagua is done at a very low level. It'll get better, of course, but until then I think there's a lot of misperceptions.


"I'm genuinely interested because you've trained Chen style with more diligence than most and have had the opportunity to explore the art in a nonmystical manner with some top teachers."

I'll tell you where my training and perceptions have paid off in a way that puts me ahead of most westerners... I know enough to know for sure that I know damn' little about real Taiji... and I know more than most westerners who "teach". Knowing that keeps me from making an idiot out of myself by teaching "Tai Chi" and it keeps me from taking hard-earned money from people who think I know Taiji. :^)

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote:

>>>"It's all tied together. You can't do Taiji without peng jin; you can't do pengjin right without reeling silk movement, which by necessity *must* use the dantien physically; reeling silk movement has a training aspect that adds to the great strength of Taiji and gives "cover" at the same time.">>" What about the time when a fist or elbow or knee slips through hard despite ting jin, yielding and deflection? What does Chen Xiaowang do in a case like that?"

Well, that's a bit like the question, "do you still beat your wife?"? It's assumptive.>>"And yet I've heard of a number of fights and confrontations that CXW has been in. This one is easy to handle. Go meet him at a seminar and challenge him if you doubt he has any ability. Trust me, he's taken plenty of challenges.">>"I don't think I'm one of those sycophant morons that takes a light touch from a teacher and bounces myself backward shreiking... I think he's the real deal. I've tried to get my shots in and wound up face-first on the garage floor or hard on the grass a number of times. Give it a try, in the spirit of adventure. :^)"<<<

I don't believe you. Your face is much too pretty and doesn't show that kind of battering. When I got tossed on the floor it broke my nose. But maybe Chen taiji "cover" protects the proboscis too.

Seriously, though, I'm not interested in Chen's ability to deal with attacks from a distance. I want to know how this taiji "cover" works when the fist or the foot hits his abdomen. What happens then? How is the force handled, absorbed, redirected or deflected?

Regards,

Tom

Hmmmmmm. Let's just say that a form of conditioning can be developed to handle the blows. There are different ways of approaching that conditioning, but it's still conditioning that happens with a certain type of training and it is done in conjunction with the whole body being trained and "wound" (as in chan ssu jin) as a unit and with almost automatic use of nei jin.

Mike

Not to put words in the mouth of anyone but M Sigman seems to imply a 'Global Method'in regards to the discussed topic???

Non Transfer of Basic Abilities


Schmidt (1991) states there is a misconception that fundamental abilities can be trained through various activities. These fundamental abilities are not transferable, and coaches have often employed various ‘quickening’ exercises to try to enhance their athlete’s ‘quickness’. There is no single quickness ability that can be trained. Thus, attempts to modify an ability with a non-specific drill is ineffective. However, transference of ‘physical proficiency abilities’ is possible because of the global nature of pure physiological factors effecting other movements. For example, an increase in muscle tissue effects all skills because extra muscle tissue will proportionately raise global strength levels (assuming everything else being equal).

That may be overdoing it. There are training tricks to build up all sorts of strengths. One of the interesting parts of CMA is to find out how so-and-so got his unusual strength in such-and-such a fashion. This particular "unusual strength" is pretty interesting, but it has a lot of variants floating around. So yes, it's "global" in that sense, but more to the point it's a fairly productive way to condition yourself martially and a "cover" of sorts is developed.

The problem with Taiji is not so much an interest in an "iron shirt" subjects... the problem is, as many Chinese say, that real Taijiquan takes too much skill to perform and too many years to learn and train.

fa li... thats what chen xiao wang should do...... yi chu ji fa

Mike,

The specificty theory does seem a bit overdone-MO.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol12/rushall1.htm

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol12/table.htm

However I would be interested to hear from folks who have used push hands or other similar methods as their chief method of preparation for a free form fighting event.I have made this mistake on numerous occasions....Man have I made some mistakes...I'd be willing to bet results are almost always more positive for those that engage in training more specific to the actual event.

It might be worth considering whether a training method such as push hand develops better push hands skill only,or whether the practice of push hands results in a positive transfer to other areas such as actual combat,or whether it only transfers in a combat scenario when the "moment of push hand " is engaged....does this as well depend on teacher and method???

Does the issue of Skill vs Ability starts to define itself a bit?


This issue also co mingles with the whole "competeive push hands vs more traditional training" -MO

I believe there is an overlap of sorts.But I also feel it might be an issue worth considering in order to maximize return on training time.

How many have been sold a load of hot gas such a stand in Pi Chuan for an hour a day and your fighting will automatically improve?

I have always felt your training system offers benefits that allow for positive transfer in a 'global manner'if you will...as in Ability begetting Skill???

Forgot to add this.For those who feel slow moving training tranfers in a positive manner to faster moving events read on.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol42/brisswal.htm

Hi Luke,

I like to use push-hands training for free-sparring or competitive events but I tend to tailor the drills to be a bit more task specific. As Tim says, as soon as you make contact with your opponent you are pushing hands (struggle for position). Here are a few ideas. You should be able to come up with dozens on your own as well.

- Have your partner try to clinch and control the head (the ole' Muay Thai head pull-down), the body (front bear hug) or any other clinch while you neutralize his clinch attempt. Then reverse it.

- Try working on a specific entry or strategy from push hands such as getting to the back, getting a whizzer or getting to the outside of and controlling an arm. Then reverse it.

- Practice single and double leg take-downs from free-style push-hands. Then practice defending your opponent's take-down attempts.

- Add kicks to your push hands. I land most of my kicks when my hands are in contact with my opponent's. If nobody's ever kicked at you like this you'll find it much harder to defend and they tend to take you by surprise more than kicks initiated from a longer range.

- Have a training partner come at you with any punch or como he wants. Practice neutralizing and smothering as soon as possible. As soon as you feel you've gained control by sticking, separate and do it again.

There's an infinite number of ways push hands drills can benefit your free fighting. It's limited to your imagination assuming that you've gained a decent level of skill in the basics or are under the eye of a good instructor. The more task specific drills you apply push-hands training to, the more tools you'll have to work with. I completely dis-agree that training only in the formalized drills or the "try to make me take a step" game will yeild the best results.

I see push-hands as a sensitivity drill to develop all those internal energies we always hear about - listening, sticking, coiling, etc. But it's also a drill to teach entries. You can train step sparring where the opponent attacks and you work on your technique but you can also practice initiating that same technique from push hands. Also, if you attempt a technique and your opponent counters - you are now doing push hands if you're sticking and following his counter.

Formalized push hands is good basic training for sensitivity, balance and body mechanics but the free-style "game" generally de-generates into a piss-poor form of "shove & tug" wrestling. Training to actually gain a better position for a lock or throw or find/create an opening for your any of your strikes (elbows, knees, head, etc.) FROM push hands is always a good addition to the more formalized push-hands drills. I'm not talking about replacing the more formalized methods, just taking it to the next logical step.

It would be interesting to hear from Tim how push-hands was trained in a more free-style manner by the old-timers.

Good Training - Erik

Thanks Eric for the detailed response.

Tim and others from that line have always impressed me with their overall balanced approach...(strong emphasis on entry and exit techniques,entwining with push hand ect)...transforming the "many" into "one"

"For competition tasks which vary considerably, or produce a wide variety of rarely repeated situations, learning conditions should feature contextual interference once the basic skill elements are established. This will slow the learning rate but will lead to better transfer. Training should include high and low contextual interference tasks."

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol31/christin.htm

This seems important.Maybe someone can explain what the heck it means?

I think it works like this, using two person san shou routines as a prelude to free-form competition fighting as an example, you initially learn the basic structured form. Once you have achieved a reasonable level of competency, the next stage is to remove some of that structure by changing the order slighty (contextual interference), leaving out and/or adding moves. Gradually changing more and more until the form becomes spontaneous/unrehearsed reactions or free form. The high and low may refer in this case to variations in speed and/or intensity of strikes.

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