Archive through June 26, 2002

Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Arts - Miscellaneous: Dan Docherty and Wudang/Practical Tai Chi Chuan: Archive through June 26, 2002
   By Daniel J on Friday, April 19, 2002 - 10:19 pm: Edit Post

A common demonstration is to have the practitioner lie on the ground, and then for another person to jump from a height of 6 feet onto the practitioner's stomach. I've also seen a photo of Docherty in a standing posture where 2 other people simultaneously kick him in the neck, I think it was, with flying kicks, one from the front and one from the rear.


   By Will Tarken on Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 05:25 pm: Edit Post

Well, Tom, obviously you are an ardent believer in what you are told. A little research instead of religious mantra is a help to any serious practitioner, but enough said about Docherty, Cheng Ting Heng, and your unique slants on the mythical Zhang San Feng, what the chen people studied, and so on.

And if you think a traditional Chinese gent like Zheng Man Jing went to Malaysia and down-loaded everything he knew to the natives because they were just good chaps that he liked on sight, then you're living in fantasy-land.

Willam C.C. Chen has openly said that he learned his iron-shirt neigong from outside sources other than Zheng, so that's another part of your history all shot. He even tried to teach Zheng, according to William, and Zheng was simply too old to learn it at the time they started.

Maybe you should ask yourself why both the Yang family and the Chen family say there are no neigongs like that in Taiji. It would give you some interesting new material to reject. :)


   By paul rogers on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 12:38 pm: Edit Post

dear people. i studied with master long in malaysia for ten years. i also learnt all the nei gong.there are exersises to develop splitting power, plucking power, kao power etc.also there are iron shirt training methods. the methods were passed down from wu jian quan.cheng tin hung and my teacher were shi xiong di.


   By Tom on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 01:08 pm: Edit Post

Thanks, Paul. It makes sense to me that a close-in fighting art like taijiquan would include "iron-shirt" type nei gong training methods--whether or not all students learned them.

Will, we're reliant on what we're told from the days we can first understand what our mothers tell us. Of course, if you don't have a momma or she lies to you, you're in for some bitter lessons growing up.

I've never heard William C.C. Chen claim that he taught Zheng Manqing nei gong. I have heard Chen say that he trained as a bai rumen with Zheng in the neigong practices, and helped him develop/practice them further. As far as what Zheng would have taught when he was in Malaysia, Zheng himself never wrote about it. All we have are the accounts of his students and grandstudents there--and many of them state quite clearly that Zheng's teaching included the nei gong we're talking about. A couple of the more industrious teachers already had previous "golden bell" training before taking up taijiquan.

As far as what the Chen and Yang families teach, not all Chen and Yang style teachers are equal in their skill, understanding and knowledge of taijiquan. If you take what Yang Zhenduo teaches as the full depth and breadth of what the first three generations of the Yang family knew and practiced, you're sadly mistaken. Yang style and Chen style teachers are around who include specific nei gong training for absorbing and protecting against strikes against the body and limbs. It's not training they added on their own, but rather training they received from their teachers.


Historical connections between Shaolin martial arts and what eventually developed into taijiquan are at least as well established as the mythology of Zhang Sanfeng and the "ancient" 20th-century phenomenon of Wudang martial arts.


   By Mike Sigman on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 05:22 pm: Edit Post

Not to butt into a conversation, but I can attest to also having heard the story of William Chen's Pai Da training from both some of his students and also CMC students from the old days. I don't think that it's all that obscure a story.

As far as your opinion that "iron shirt" (a shaolin training method)is probably used in Taiji, can you support that with data from the Chen or Yang family? I'm not really aware of it, but I'm always open to correction. In fact, once when I mentioned the topic to Chen Xiao Wang, he told me there was no pai da in Chen style. Perhaps I misunderstood, though.

I find the comment in a message above that CMC only spent a matter of months in Malaysia quite interesting. Does anyone know the exact amount of time he spent there and when it was, please?


   By Tom on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 10:35 pm: Edit Post

Zheng Manqing only spent about six months in Malaysia, Mike, in 1957 (plus or minus, but before Robert Smith encountered him in Taiwan in 1959). That's according to Nigel Sutton, who describes it in some detail in a couple of his books, as well as in a couple of articles he wrote in dueling submissions with the venerable Robert W. Smith in Journal of Asian Martial Arts a few years ago.

As far as William C.C. Chen goes, I've only heard that he learned neigong relating to absorbing a body blow from Zheng Manqing. He may well have also received some Shaolin-type "iron shirt" training that he showed Zheng Manqing . . . but that is a far cry from Will's apparent statement that it was William C.C. Chen playing the role of teacher to Zheng Manqing. Others students of Zheng learned his particular Zuo Lai Feng neigong system.

There are different ways to train the body's "shockability". Some rely on the hardness and tension demonstrated in some "southern" Chinese methods or in particular branches of Japanese/Okinawan karate like Goju-ryu (which has roots in Fujian province)or Kyokushinkai. Others train in a "softer" shock-absorption practice, moving the body and internal tissues to distribute and re-route the impact of the strike. This seems quite different in approach (and training methodology)to the "iron shirt" skill of southern CMAs.

There is video footage of an older (60-plus) gentleman, one of Zheng's students, taking repeated blows from Robert W. Smith in Taiwan in the early 1960s. In Chen taiji, both Feng Zhiqiang and Hong Junsheng train joint movement and circular deflection and reflection of incoming energy from body blows. At least one advanced student can take pretty strong strikes to the body and rebound them back. In Yang taijiquan, Wei Shuren of Beijing (in the Yang Jianhou line, but not through Yang Chengfu)trains similar skill. I've only seen video demonstrations and exchanged correspondence on what I saw with a student of Wei's.

BTW, Mike, nice article on long-staff training in the last issue of Mike Jones' IMA Journal. I'd recommend it for any taiji or xingyi practitioners who haven't been exposed to the basics of "power" training with the long staff.


   By Mike Sigman on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:50 am: Edit Post

Tom writes:

"Zheng Manqing only spent about six months in Malaysia, Mike, in 1957 (plus or minus, but before Robert Smith encountered him in Taiwan in 1959). That's according to Nigel Sutton, who describes it in some detail in a couple of his books, as well as in a couple of articles he wrote in dueling submissions with the venerable Robert W. Smith in Journal of Asian Martial Arts a few years ago."

Although I was vaguely aware of the "dueling submissions" (and frankly, if it came to personalities, I would have sided with Nigel; Smith was a horse's ass), I didn't spend a lot of time with it and I didn't remember that CMC had only spent 6 months in Malaysia. That should be enough to raise serious flags. Particularly if, as a couple of side emails indicate, Ben Lo and others who studied for many years deny Cheng (Zheng) taught that sort of qigong. If Ben Lo only learned 2 forms in 20 something years and T.T. Liang was taught sparingly, it would seemingly be impossible for Zheng to have taught "openly" for 6 months. Besides, if someone can pick up a sophisticated knowledge of Taiji in 6 months then Yang Lu Chan was a moron for spending 17 years, right?


"As far as William C.C. Chen goes, I've only heard that he learned neigong relating to absorbing a body blow from Zheng Manqing. He may well have also received some Shaolin-type "iron shirt" training that he showed Zheng Manqing . . . but that is a far cry from Will's apparent statement that it was William C.C. Chen playing the role of teacher to Zheng Manqing. Others students of Zheng learned his particular Zuo Lai Feng neigong system. "

I just made a call to a "certified teacher" of William Chen's and he pretty much concurs that Cheng attempted to learn the iron shirt that William does. It's the only one Wm Chen ever learned, apparently. What "other students" learned the Zuo Lai Feng neigong, BTW? If it's non-Malaysian students, it should be easy to check. If it's only Malaysian students who support the claim, then there is an obvious conflict, wouldn't you agree?


"There are different ways to train the body's "shockability". Some rely on the hardness and tension demonstrated in some "southern" Chinese methods or in particular branches of Japanese/Okinawan karate like Goju-ryu (which has roots in Fujian province)or Kyokushinkai. Others train in a "softer" shock-absorption practice, moving the body and internal tissues to distribute and re-route the impact of the strike. This seems quite different in approach (and training methodology)to the "iron shirt" skill of southern CMAs. "

My opinion is that you'll find all these systems *when done correctly* involve a basic trick of the body that is the same. Some very crude "iron shirts" I agree are simply conditioning to blows, but I'm talking about a step beyond that.

"There is video footage of an older (60-plus) gentleman, one of Zheng's students, taking repeated blows from Robert W. Smith in Taiwan in the early 1960s."

He learned that somewhere else, though. He was a farmer who had done other martial arts, from all I've heard.

"In Chen taiji, both Feng Zhiqiang and Hong Junsheng train joint movement and circular deflection and reflection of incoming energy from body blows. At least one advanced student can take pretty strong strikes to the body and rebound them back."

Sure, but this is not the same topic we're discussing.

"In Yang taijiquan, Wei Shuren of Beijing (in the Yang Jianhou line, but not through Yang Chengfu)trains similar skill. I've only seen video demonstrations and exchanged correspondence on what I saw with a student of Wei's."

Well, that may be, but we'd both have to agree that this may originate elsewhere. Unfortunately, the woods are full of people claiming "original Yang secrets" that are suspect. Let's put this one on the shelf until it is established.

The point being that sometimes there are claims made in Chinese martial arts that 'jist ain't so' and we all have to consider the possibility of that. All data needs to be considered in an impartial light and always with the idea of "not everything I was taught may be true". I've certainly found a few things in my life that were wrong, saintly and godlike as my teachers were. :^)


"BTW, Mike, nice article on long-staff training in the last issue of Mike Jones' IMA Journal. I'd recommend it for any taiji or xingyi practitioners who haven't been exposed to the basics of "power" training with the long staff."

Thanks. I'm no expert though.

Regards,

Mike


   By CoolHandLuke on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 01:06 pm: Edit Post

" There is video footage of an older (60-plus) gentleman, one of Zheng's students, taking repeated blows from Robert W. Smith in Taiwan in the early 1960s."

Robert Smith was very open in his "reverence" for the "Master of The Five Excellences."

A punching and absorbing demo of Smith and one of Zheng,s students that is held up as validation of the above is highly suspect-MO.

Another words,these often realistic appearing demos,are often nothing more than a "dance performance" given in the "spirit of cooperation",especially when the one "dealin" has something to lose.I would bet that Smith had just enough "complicit skill" so as to be at once convincing...at least to some...and yet harmless.

After all-and if Smith indeed had the power-would the Master have continued to 'excellently'teach Smith had he flattened the farmer?

Why I'd bet if he had,he never would have even been offered a paintbrush.


   By Tom on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:19 pm: Edit Post

Speculation, CLH. Find the video. The rooting, movement, exertion and impact of the puncher look pretty real to me. The small old guy is knocked back a half step, but he keeps smiling and inviting repeat punches with no rest in between. Seems like that would be hard to fake.

Note though that I've never found anything indicating that Zheng himself ever demonstrated taking body blows like that. Beneath his Confucian dignity as a teacher, maybe.

The only point is that, at least for particular students of Zheng, a capacity for absorbing body shots was a result of whatever training they engaged in under his auspices. It may well have been with other outside teachers with Zheng approving. Or it may have been from Zheng himself, as some of his Malaysian students maintained. I don't know, wasn't there.

Wang Shujin made a marketing point of taking hard shot anywhere except to the head (and probably the groin). He taught a version of Chen Panling's taijiquan, but wasn't renowned for his taiji skill. His martial reputation was based more on his xingyi and bagua.


   By Tom on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 06:10 pm: Edit Post

CLH,

I looked to see if anyone has posted that segment (or any segment) from the Zheng Manqing video anywhere . . . couldn't find anything, maybe because of concern over copyright issues. You'd have to pay $75 or so for a home-movie quality video that, frankly, unless you're a ZMQ fanatic, isn't worth it. I don't practice the style, just had seen the video in one of my old teacher's collection.

If, as Mike heard, the old guy in the video learned the skill elsewhere, then it's not an example of anything ZMQ taught. Probably the same for William C. C. Chen then, too (who years ago demonstrated his skill by having a motorcycle ride over his belly while he lay on his back). Wouldn't surprise me that Chen gained a lot of his skill from other practices.

The 6 months time ZMQ spent in Malaysia is pretty firm, Mike, based on two different teachers' recollection. The year was 1957. How much could ZMQ have taught in 6 months? That would depend on the martial skill level and understanding of his students and, frankly, what the payment was. A skilled and ambitious martial artist intent on learning the martial skills that had just put him on his ass would train 6, 7, 8 or more hours a day. Zheng--assuming he had content to offer--would likely have been inspired by the student's dedication--reminding him of his own time (however limited that may have been) when he studied under Yang Cheng Fu and Zhang Qinling. Six months of intensive practice could yield impressive results, I would think.

Here is what Nigel Sutton's Malaysian Chinese teacher Koh Ah Tee says about ZMQ's neigong practice. This is the same neigong practice that Koh uses to take standard demonstration shots of chairs broken over his back, jumping kicks to the chest, etc. From www.zhong-ding.com/nanyang.htm:

"To say this more plainly and less nicely: Yang Chengfu was not Cheng Man Ching's only teacher. Yes we can say that Cheng learnt his taijiquan from Yang Chengfu, that's not wrong but his neigong came from Zhang Qinglin and a lot of other things came from other teachers, so the final result, Cheng's taijiquan did not come from only one source.

While on the subject of neigong, some people claim that Cheng never taught this, others say he did. This is because Grandmaster Cheng was selective in what he taught to whom. He didn't simply teach everybody. Another thing is that this set of neigong is not easy to learn; it is subtle and not easy for the average student to study. Because the old gentlemen was selective in whom he taught there are those who claimed he never taught it and those who claimed he did. He didn't teach everybody. But it is certain that this set came from him. The proof lies in the calligraphy he wrote detailing his lineage from Zhang Sanfeng, Xu Shihui, Zuo Laifeng, down to Zhang Qinlin. This is documented. Why would he write down the lineage if there was no such training?

Although this Zuo Laifeng method was separate from his taijiquan, as both Lo Bengzhen and Wang Yennian aver, Grandmaster Cheng himself made the connection between the two. This he did in one of his books when he said that he had not understood the difference between "jing" and "li" before he received the Zuo transmission. Although the teaching he quoted about "li" coming from the bones and "jing" from the sinews (translator's note Cheng Man Ching's Advanced Form Instructions Sweet Ch'i Press 1985 p.148 translated by Douglas Wile from Book Two "On Calligraphy";) is actually a teaching of the Yang family. Despite this the proof is there that he himself connected his knowledge of the Zuo transmission with taijiquan and used one to illuminate the other."


   By Tom on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 06:35 pm: Edit Post

Finally, I just want to be clear that I'm not defending ZMQ's style or saying clearly that Shaolin iron-shirt or golden-bell-type training is a part of taijiquan. I'm just trying to pass on some of what I've come across. The Zuo Lai Feng neigong was taught to at least some of ZMQ's students in Malaysia during six months in 1957. I don't know anything about the set, other than that it seems to provide the ability to absorb pretty hard shots. The students may have learned the set in six months, then developed the shock-absorption capability with continued practice on their own.

Koh Ah Tee makes one important point: the Zuo Lai Feng neigong system was something that ZMQ did not learn from Yang Cheng Fu. This would accord with Mike's earlier statement that Yang family teaching, at least of Yang Cheng Fu, didn't include iron-shirt training. Or it may be that ZMQ didn't learn it from YCF, because he was not a long-term bai rumen of YCF. Or maybe YCF simply didn't know the skill (YCF probably didn't learn everything his father or older brother had to teach). Long-term bona fide YCF disciples like Fu Zhongwen or Dong Yingjie don't appear to have learned any kind of iron-shirt skill from YCF.

In any event, according to the Malaysian students as well as Wang Yen-nien (another longer-term student of Zhang Qinling who still teaches in Taiwan), ZMQ learned a Daoist neigong (Zuo was a Daoist priest, as was Zhang Qinling). This neigong practice was separate from what he learned of Yang style taijiquan from YCF. And apparently ZMQ did not teach this neigong system to every student, even long-term students. As Mike pointed out, it doesn't appear to be something that Ben Lo or T. T. Liang picked up. Or did they? Maybe they just haven't taught it publicly. It would be interesting to find out from someone like Stuart Olson (for Liang) or Lenzie Williams (for Lo) whether their teachers ever mentioned or demonstrated similar neigong "behind closed doors."

But even if this neigong skill is some kind of "Shaolin add-on"--if it works, does that make it somehow incompatible with taijiquan? I mean, taijiquan is a development from "Shaolin" martial arts . . . whether one takes the mythical Zhang Sanfeng as creator (he spent 10-plus years in the Shaolin temple, according to legend) or the more prosaic (and in my view likely) version attributing the art to Chen Wan-ting's adaptation of the Shaolin forms included in the quanfa chapter of General Qi's book from the 1560s, Shaolinquan of some kind is a major source of taijiquan. I don't think iron shirt or golden bell neigong inevitably detracts from the effectiveness of taijiquan as a martial art.

Whatever. I've flogged this dead horse until its iron shirt rusted. Sorry for the mixed metaphor.

Mike, what Feng and Hong taught by way of absorbing and redirecting body blows is not the same as the iron shirt training. I tried to distinguish it before, and didn't meant to imply it was the same as the "pai da" you talk about.

Wei Shuren's lineage and ability aren't doubted in Beijing. It doesn't need to be put on your top shelf; the material and his students are out there.

Maybe Yang Luchan was a moron for spending 18 (not 17) years with the Chen family. Maybe he learned the "golden bell cover" skill recounted in an old story about him somewhere else (Jiang Fa, anyone?). The story is the one where he wrapped himself in his cloak and fell to the ground, simply absorbing the blows of his attackers until they went away.


   By Mike Sigman on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 07:22 pm: Edit Post

Well, I doubt CMC would or even could have taught much in 6 months, if that's the point of debate. He never did it for anyone else in his whole life and for him to step off the plane in Malaysia, meet the locals, and say, "At last I have found you, the most inviting group of potential students in the world.. I will show you everything." I like the scenario. It's improbable that he would have not even demonstrated an iron-shirt like that to others on Taiwan, etc., so that they (Ben Lo and others)could at least have acknowledged that he did such a thing. They apparently deny it.

Well, I'll leave my mind open if you will at least admit that there's also a good chance that some good old southern Chinese balderdash came your way. The 6 months is a tough hurdle to get past.... and the presence of shaolin neigongs all over Malaysia doesn't help.

I'm going to pass over your "proof" involving jin and li, other than to say I don't agree with your interpretation of what was meant, so insofar as proof goes, it's not really there.

The point you make about an "iron shirt" couldn't hurt Taiji to have... that's a valid comment. The problem has to do with the training of it.

Think of an iron-shirt or golden bell as a "strength", if you will. If that "strength" is practiced in a local and isolated way, it doesn't belong in Taiji and will conflict with the movements. If however, the "strength" is an offshoot of or layer of the silk-reeling jin, then technically *my guess* (i.e., don't bet the farm on what I say) is that it would be OK, so I don't fault the idea of an iron-shirt mechanism, at all.

However, Taiji, like proper Xingyi, should develop a reasonable "cover" without the addition of a an iron-shirt neigong. In other words, Xingyi and Taiji are like new cars that came with a lot of built-in accessories. If you bought the real deal, you shouldn't have to have to have a separate device... it would imply that the "Taiji" being practiced was not real and sufficient. That's the problem with an "add-on iron shirt" more than anything else, IMO.

FWIW

Mike


   By CoolHandLuke on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 07:41 pm: Edit Post

Tom,

I am not saying it did not happen or the student in question did not possess the discussed skill.

Simply pointing out that a demo involving such a admiring subject might not the most rigourous testament to 'proof'

Now excuse me,I have to get back to catching some bullets with my teeth


   By Jeff on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 09:30 am: Edit Post

"he wrapped himself in his cloak and fell to the ground, simply absorbing the blows of his attackers until they went away."

Hmm...


   By Mike Sigman on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:28 am: Edit Post

Yeah, hmmmmmmmmmm is right. Generally, the stories of Yang Lu Chan have to be read with the eyebrows already raised (it saves time). There are some stories of his life that are embellished a bit by the Yang family loyalists (like instead of being a simple indentured servant, which he was, he becomes a rich martial-arts enthusiast) and then there are the apocryphal ones like the golden bell story you mention and the one where he came across a muddy yard but when he entered the house there was no mud on his shoes, etc. The hundred-man story may have been built on some kernel of truth, but what it was, we'll probably never know. The stories I like to regale New Age audiences with are the ones where YLC killed various people.

Mike


   By Tom on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 12:34 pm: Edit Post

Mike Sigman wrote:

>>>"Well, I doubt CMC would or even could have taught much in 6 months, if that's the point of debate. He never did it for anyone else in his whole life and for him to step off the plane in Malaysia, meet the locals, and say, 'At last I have found you, the most inviting group of potential students in the world.. I will show you everything.'" <<<

Pure speculation on your part, Mike. People who learned from him in Malaysia say that he did teach them a specific neigong system from Zuo Lai Feng handed down through Zhang Qinglin, who was a student of Zuo. You can spew forth all the empty skepticism you want, but the fact is that this ZLF neigong is practiced within the Malaysian lineage to this day, with one specific purpose being increasing the ability of the body to absorb hard impacts. The ZLF neigong comes from a Daoist, not Shaolin, tradition--although what practical difference that makes in the actual practice, I don't know.

The ZLF neigong was a discrete add-on to the bits and pieces of Yang style taijiquan that Zheng Manqing picked up from Yang Cheng-fu. ZMQ may well not have learned the "complete" art from YCF. In part this may have been because YCF didn't learn the "complete" art of Yang style taijiquan from his father or older brother, but made up much of his practice on his own.

If that's the case, then ZMQ had to seek out others like Zhang Qinlin in order to further develop his skills--a common practice in Chinese martial arts. ZMQ is also said to have studied "dim mak" with yet another teacher. "Dim mak" is not part of the Chenshi taijiquan curriculum, nor part of the YCF teaching. Yet it is referred to in some of the Yang family documents (translated by Douglas Wile). ZMQ had to seek training in dim mak with a non-taiji teacher (by his own account, he didn't finish the training) in order to prepare for a rematch with Wu Menxia.

For what it's worth (not much).

I'd agree that iron-shirt or other training that cultivated and relied on isolated local (torso) hardening/tension would impede development of chansijin skill.


   By Tom on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 12:34 pm: Edit Post

No mud on his shoes . . . that would be a handy skill.

But I think that Jeff's remark was intended to suggest that one of us wrap ourselves in our cloak and absorb the verbal barrage until the other went away. ;- ]


   By Mike Sigman on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:59 pm: Edit Post

Tom writes:

"Pure speculation on your part, Mike."

Why don't we just leave it there, Tom? The claim is made that CMC taught his entire knowledge of Taiji plus an esoteric iron shirt that none of CMC's senior students ever heard of, all in 6 months. If you want to believe it, I support your right to do so. If I want to express reasons why it's improbable, please allow me to do so. :^)



"The ZLF neigong was a discrete add-on to the bits and pieces of Yang style taijiquan that Zheng Manqing picked up from Yang Cheng-fu. ZMQ may well not have learned the "complete" art from YCF. In part this may have been because YCF didn't learn the "complete" art of Yang style taijiquan from his father or older brother, but made up much of his practice on his own."

OK. But if Taiji is so difficult to get the nuances that Yang Lu Chan had to go back 2 or 3 times for further information, what probability is there that YCF's "re-discoveries" are valid? It's an interesting question, isn't it? And BTW, it was this essential question that initiated the Wu-style breakoff from the Yang style.

"If that's the case, then ZMQ had to seek out others like Zhang Qinlin in order to further develop his skills--a common practice in Chinese martial arts. ZMQ is also said to have studied "dim mak" with yet another teacher. "Dim mak" is not part of the Chenshi taijiquan curriculum, nor part of the YCF teaching. Yet it is referred to in some of the Yang family documents (translated by Douglas Wile). ZMQ had to seek training in dim mak with a non-taiji teacher (by his own account, he didn't finish the training) in order to prepare for a rematch with Wu Menxia. "


One of the interesting things about CMC is how much weight is put on his words and claims about studying with YCF. CMC says in one book that he met YCF in 1932 and since YCF died in 1936, common math would tell us that at most he could have studied for only 4 years. But since he told Robert Smith that he studied with YCF for *7* years, that seems to be the figure they want to believe.

I suppose, since none of CMC's writings (at least until he was about to die) credit Zhang Ching Ling, we'll have to ask his American students what we should believe about Zhang. There may be some accepted ritual of belief that we should adhere to.


"I'd agree that iron-shirt or other training that cultivated and relied on isolated local (torso) hardening/tension would impede development of chansijin skill."

And since *all* styles of Taiji *must* use chan Ssu jin for the peng jin to be correct, then what can we say about a style that uses "neigongs" but not silk-reeling jin? Are they truly Taiji styles? Where's my Nomex suit? :^)

Mike


   By Mike Sigman on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 04:10 pm: Edit Post

Tom, let me simplify the analogy about the "iron shirt". Taiji and Xingyi, by the way they move and use "qi" (allow me to be vague; I know specifically what I'm talking about, but I'm not going to go into it) will build up a "cover" and not need an added-on "iron shirt". If someone is practicing a form of "Taiji" that does not automatically do that and they need a separate exercise, what does that say about the validity of their "Taiji"? That is the logic of why the validity of a separate "iron shirt" is not the point. The point is that you don't use a separate neigong like that unless there's a very basic problem with the way the movements are being done.

And please... I'm just pointing out something that I *know* would come up if I used your arguments to some very real and skilled Taiji experts. I don't want to get into a pissing contest. Take a deep breath. Hit me back with some logic.

Regards,

Mike


   By Tom on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 07:09 pm: Edit Post

Mike Sigman wrote:

"I don't want to get into a pissing contest. Take a deep breath. Hit me back with some logic."

Keerist, he wants reasoned argument. You mean you don't want to be as much of a pugnacious twit as I am? Dammit, Sigman, you have a reputation to preserve. Besides which, I don't hit, Mike. I use ling kong jin. See, I have you rolling on the floor already and I haven't even touched ya.

Let's leave the extent of ZMQ's taijiquan knowledge and skill behind. Whatever he had, his American students have very little of it. And I don't personally know any of the Malaysian teachers or students who talk about the Zuo Lai Feng training, haven't tried out whatever skill that training gives them. It doesn't really matter to me since I don't practice ZMQ taijiquan anyways.

You also wrote:

"If someone is practicing a form of "Taiji" that does not automatically do that and they need a separate exercise, what does that say about the validity of their "Taiji"? That is the logic of why the validity of a separate "iron shirt" is not the point. The point is that you don't use a separate neigong like that unless there's a very basic problem with the way the movements are being done."

I agree, insofar as taijiquan is (or at least was) a "complete" martial art which as a close-range fighting system had to deal with the issues which iron-shirt training is designed for. So if the "original" taijiquan training did not include a separate neigong system for training iron-shirt skill/conditioning, it must have met the need for that kind of close-range protection in other ways. You seem to be saying that taijiquan practice and chansijin training, properly taught and practiced, intrinsically develop that kind of protection against hard body blows.

Shaolin systems practice iron-shirt as a separate training system. What specific aspects of taijiquan training develop close-range protection against hard body blows? What about the time when a fist or elbow or knee slips through hard despite ting jin, yielding and deflection? What does Chen Xiaowang do in a case like that?

I'm not doubting Chen Xiaowang's abilities at all. It's just that he doesn't have any real fighting record. The only time I've ever heard about him being confronted physically and dealing with it was at a seminar when a Muay Thai practitioner began throwing some hard kicks. Chen Xiaowang dealt with that with a straight-in charge and fajin that dumped the guy on his ass. Chen moved so fast that the Muay Thai man didn't really follow what happened before he hit the ground. There was no ting jin or yielding there. It simply wasn't a situation where the issue of Chen being able to take some hard hits arose.

Xingyiquan practitioners expect to receive a certain amount of hard contact simply because of the minimal defensive angles and charging to take the opponent's center that characterize much of that art. Some baguazhang teachers I've spoken to say that bagua specifically trains evasion and deflection, not really being able to take a hard direct hit. What does taijiquan train for in this department?

I'm genuinely interested because you've trained Chen style with more diligence than most and have had the opportunity to explore the art in a nonmystical manner with some top teachers.