Archive through October 08, 2002

Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Arts - Miscellaneous: Western Boxing: Archive through October 08, 2002
   By George on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 01:37 am: Edit Post

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on learning western boxing and then using IMA (specifically Hsing-i) to complement it because I tried to apply some kung fu (shaolin) with no knowledge of any martial arts and it is really difficult to do them effectively. I've been told that Western boxing has very efficient techniques and helps develop fighting skill faster than most martial arts.
Every time I spar I get this feeling that I am getting worse, making me think that I am persuing something that won't pay off. What's the point of learning something if you can't apply it?

   By Rick Matz on Wednesday, April 25, 2001 - 07:16 am: Edit Post

I've often thought that Western Boxing, driven by YiQuan, would be quite formidable. I wouldn't think that the footwork and breathing of Xing Yi would fit in well with Western Boxing.

Having said that, I read in Robert Smiths last book, that one of his Xing Yi students did really well in a Golden Gloves tournament.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

   By Tim on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 03:43 am: Edit Post

Western boxing is probably the best choice of all the martial arts when it comes to developing practical hand skills in a relatively short amount of time.

Western boxing doesn't need to be 'driven' by anything else, it works just fine as it is. When the Chinese army was researching and developing their hand to hand combat (which later evolved into the modern San Shou/San Da tournament fighting popular today), they researched all the popular forms of martial arts (including their own). The conclusion was that Western boxing hand techniques (when it came to developing practical striking and defensive abilities in a reasonable amount of time) were superior to all others (including their own). Other (Chinese) hand techniques were included to round out the training, but the foundation of San Shou hand techniques is Western boxing. The striking techniques of the IMA (especially Xing Yi Quan) are, in my opinion, on par with Western boxing, but for shear speed of skill development (and practical ability), you can't beat boxing (an interesting side note, the descriptions of generating force described in Jack Dempsy's book, "Championship Fighting," are virtually identical to those in Xing Yi Quan).

A few months of boxing lessons with a good coach will almost certainly be of great value to your training.

   By Brian Kennedy on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 04:55 am: Edit Post

When you talk about the Chinese army developing San Shou and bringing in western boxing techniques what period are you talking about? It seems that the Chinese Army had at least three major points where they "rethought" how they were doing their hand to hand combat training: the early years of the Republic (i.e. the 1920s), right after the Korean War and then latter in the late 1960's.

You are talking about the Republican period? The reason I ask is I am doing an article for Dragon Times magazine on military martial arts training manuals (e.g. General Qi's book, Hwang bo Nien's book and maybe others).

I'll quote you!

take care,


   By Tim on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 01:53 am: Edit Post

Hi Brian,
At the risk of losing the chance to be quoted, I don't have any sources with exact dates. I know that Western boxing was apparently taught at the Nanjing Central Martial Arts institute in the 1930's (so it started in the Republican period) and was later researched and incorporated into the Red Army San Shou in the 1960's.

   By Brian Kennedy on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 02:54 am: Edit Post

Hi Tim,
No worries about exactly when, actually the above answer is perfect, I will use it, with attribution to you, as is word for word...well I will cut out the first part about "no sources" and no exact dates.

Seriously thanks. I should mention I am working on a book about Chinese martial arts training manuals. Mr. Liu/Lionbooks will publish it. It is kind of a "joint venture"; he supplies the photos, and most of the information; I supply the text. I am really pushing to have the text done by the end of the year. The book will basically be one or two pages about each book/author and pictures from the book being discusssed.

It will cover about 30 books. Some of which are well known; General Qi's book, Sun Lu Tang, Hwang Bo-nien, and some of which are not so well known or influencial but that have "cool" or interesting pictures/drawings. The coverage will stop about 1950 because more recent books are either legally or in some moral sense, "owned" by somebody.

take care,

   By Tim on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 03:48 pm: Edit Post

I'm looking forward to your book, it will be the first of its kind. Let us know when it is ready.

   By Steve James on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:55 pm: Edit Post

Hi Brian,

fwiw, there are those who would argue that western techniques and training methods (such as boxing) became incorporated into what is now called San shou or Sanda after the Korean War. I agree that it is likely the Nationalists researched in many methods, but then again they might have been suspicious of "foreigners". Have you translated the book on the Nanking Central Guoshu Academy? Is there any info in it on that? Anyway, you might also check with the boxing clubs in HK. Maybe you could also contact WCC Chen, who did some boxing. He might know. Well, good luck in your research, and I too look forward to your upcoming book.

Steve James

   By willard ford on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 03:12 pm: Edit Post

Moe Drasin, a sometime student of Tim, studied and competed in western boxing when he lived in Hong Kong in the mid 1980's. He might be able to provide contact information for a gym over there, but then again, he's a real motherf*cker and might just ignore you completely. Contact him at:

   By Meynard on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 05:49 pm: Edit Post


   By Brian Kennedy on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 09:44 pm: Edit Post

Tim, Steve, Willard and Meynard;
Thanks gentlemen for the leads. I got a copy of a book called "Western Boxing" which appears to have been a British boxing book. It was translated into Chinese (with additional commentary) by a guy named Chen Ting-rui and it came out in 1934.

I say "appears" because there is no information in the translation about who the original author was.

So that book plus the answers you folks gave will give me enough to go on.

thanks and take care,

   By Tim on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 01:15 am: Edit Post

In defense of Moe, I don't think he's such a bad guy. He's just a victim of the human scrumble, as are most of us.

   By internalenthusiast on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 02:50 am: Edit Post

Scrumble. Encarta doesn't list it; but I love it.
Scrummage (rugby) plus scramble? It sounds like life; I like it. Feels like life. A few sites do list it...lazy me to look that way. But I did check encarta. Scrumble may indeed be what I've been engaging in, without having the word. Thanks, Tim. Best to all...

   By willard ford on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 01:06 pm: Edit Post

"Scrumble" is a Japanese word meaning "Jet Stream Atack."

   By willard ford on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 01:08 pm: Edit Post

Moe said to leave him alone. You can send any and all questions about anything to:

Codeword: Black Spaghetti

   By Meynard on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 01:11 pm: Edit Post

I liked internalenthusiast idea of what scrumble means. Jet Stream Attack? What the f...

   By Tim on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 02:52 pm: Edit Post

I'm glad you liked the word. I have to admit though, I didn't make it up. It was a creation of the Japanese (but I like to use it every chance I get).

   By willard ford on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post

In Japan, "attack" is spelled "a-t-a-c-k." Alliteration confuses our inventive friends from the Far East.

"Jet Stream Atack" just like it sounds. It's top secret and unbeatable. Just ask Tim...he said he's never seen anything like it.

   By internalenthusiast on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 08:00 pm: Edit Post

i'm still a little vague about what the Japanese actually mean by the word, and why they created it. Tim, can you help us out? willard ford says we should ask you?

   By willard ford on Wednesday, October 09, 2002 - 01:02 am: Edit Post

"Scrumble" was invented by the Japanese to sell more uniforms.