ROSS Performance Enhancement System - "Bloodsport " drill !

Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Arts - Miscellaneous: ROSS Performance Enhancement System - "Bloodsport " drill !
   By Backarcher on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 09:48 pm: Edit Post

Ken Sohl a member of the forum made a very correct statement about sparring. He stated that most people who spar, spar against someone with the same style.

One of the training methods I use is ROSS, a Russian system of performance enhancement. Scott Sonnon is a the genius behind this system(not style). It has done wonders for all areas of my fighting, especially Judo.

Anyway, he has one drill called "Bloodsport". It's a drill in which one fighter mimics the style and attitude of another art besides your own.

Examples: You spar and pretend you are TKD, by throwing high kicks, you pretend you are Wing Chun, by holding a strong solid stance as you move and firing punches down the centerline, you pretend you are a wrestler by lowering your center of gravity and shooting for the legs, a boxer by dancing and jabbing.......

This is only one drill, but it not only allows you to see strengths and weakenesses in your game, but the strength and limitations of others.

A similar drill is to watch early UFCs, when fighters represented a more specific style. And you pick a fighter and fight like him.

Sounds a little odd, but it can energize your training.

Edit by SysOp - Moved to this subtopic
Edit by SysOp - Renamed thread

   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:35 pm: Edit Post

That is good, but is even better to train with actual practioners of the other arts.

Once one of the Martial Arts mags had a 'special' edition with several 'masters' each showing a response to the same five attacks. One 'master' was in some wrestling system.

What was particulary interesting was the grapler. When a defence against a particular leg grab was performed, the other arts people demonstrating the attack could not or would do it as the real grapler did. The responses of their 'masters' clearly would not have worked against 'the same' attack when performed by an actual trained grapler. None of the simulated attackers were even close to simulating the move as done by the real grapler.

Helps to have friends in other disciplines to test yourself against.

   By Backarcher on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:26 am: Edit Post

True, but you do what you can. Most people I've trained with has done at least three to five arts.

Good example of what you are saying:

When I was studying a aiki-jitsu, we were doing a defense against a leg tackle(double leg in wrestling). It was ok. I usually just kept my mouth shut and "kept my cup empty" when training in another art, hoping to gain something even if it's minute. But, I knew the move would never stop anyone with even basic wrestling. I was/am a wrestler. I had to tell me sensei what I thought...then I had to show him! It was a very tradition class with only about six students. Three were black belts, I was nothing(in their eyes) All of the blackbelts try to get it to work, but I took them all down and submitted them within seconds.

They had no response...except to continue to teach the same move...the same way. Nice people, just narrow minds.

But, keep in mind the average person doesn't train to fight other martial artist on the street or hopefully anyone. Unless you are doing MMAs.

Therefore, the main purpose of the drill is to access different possibilities of attack and defense.

   By Backarcher on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:39 am: Edit Post

Another drill I do with the police officers I train is what we call the "Scratch drill". It is a method from Tony Blauer.

I, the defender, move my hands all over my body as if I'm scratching, then suddenly...without warning, my partner attacks me with any variation of a "sucker punch", tackle, kick, knee, butt, weapon.

I then react to the attack. It's one method of getting close to who you really are as a fighter(nothing is real, but reality). I was surprised how I initially reacted. For instance, when we first began using the drill, I would try to wrestle against a weapon(dumb move). You practice these beautiful drills or forms, but when the ....hits the fan, it's ugly!

Something else we found out, there is no defense against a "stomp kick" to the shins or knees, when you are in close and unprepared. Even in practice!

Again, just one drill of many...just a training method.

   By ken sohl (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 04:43 pm: Edit Post

very close-in arts like Wing Chun or Southern Mantis jam the opponent's legs with their postures so that even if they get off a kick, it can't develop much force, and exposes them to being knocked down when one foot leaves the ground. Developing this as an instantaneous reaction is through "Chi Gerk", or sticking legs drills. In our style of mantis, kicks are not generally delivered by shifting the weight onto one leg so the other can be swung out. This would make it a 2-step movement as well as warn an opponent skilled in leg-sensitivity. Kicks are delivered with body weight as stepping or stomping movements, and are usually "3-legged", meaning when one foot leaves the ground, at least one hand is grasping your opponent. They are almost never above the knee area. More power, better balance, less telegraphing, and increased speed are the benefits. My own preference for this approach is from finding out the hard way that even low karate kicks are relatively ineffectual and exposes one to counterattack in a close-in situation. Of course, like any other drill, this (hopefully) improves one's chances, not make him invincible.

   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:12 pm: Edit Post

Ken Sohl,

The kicks in the Karate form Naihanchi/Tekki-Shodan are done precisely the way you described your Mantis-style kicking (though I admit that I've seen two modern variations of Tekki-Shodan with a high kick/sweep included, most variations I've seen stick to the low kicks in conjunction with at least one holding arm). Naihanchi/Tekki-Shodan is excellent for close-in fighting. Don't knock Karate -- for it is really good stuff. Yes, due to a big push to teach Karate as sport for health (which started about 80 years ago), much of the good combat stuff has been de-emphasized in many if not most classes (but combat stuff is still within the old forms; studying other arts like Ba-Gua, Xing-Yi, Tai-Ji, & Ju-Jitsu can help a karateka see the not-so-hidden "hidden" combat principles & techniques within an old Karate form like Naihanchi).

Nevertheless, your dismissing Karate kicks as ineffective in close combat proves Mark Hatfield's comment (above) that it's best to spar with someone who knows a different art than with someone who doesn't know & is merely offering his interpretation of what he thinks another art is like.

As an example: I erroneously thought that wrestlers used a tackle-like motion to execute 1-&-2-leg takedowns (so I erroneously thought that my tackle counter variations -- learned years ago -- were more than enough to guard me from such an attack); well last year a wrestler showed me just how a wrestler executes such takedowns; I found out that there's a world of difference between proper wrestling movement & my previous notion (& subsequent imitation) of what I thought wrestling movement was. I had never had a stand-up wrestling lesson in my life, so how could I -- or someone else in my situation -- possibly imitate a wrestler with any real accuracy?

The "immitation" of other arts can give some variety to what one usually encounters in class, but sparring with an actual practitioner of another art, & especially one adept in his or her art, is better because it will give just as much variety as the make-believe version, but with reality (so one's not as likely to fool him-or-herself concerning ability to cope with another style).

   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:47 pm: Edit Post

Sorry if I seemed to be "dissing" karate, that wasn't my intention. In fact, I have studied Isshinryu and Uechiryu in the past. Also, the kicks in other styles of southern mantis as well as our cousin arts, such as Pak Mei do often tend to be more like traditional karate low kicks. But "low" here generally refers to the area from the ribs down to the knee. The exceptions would be sweeps and stomps such as those from Naihanchi (if one needed to go lower). But it seems common practice today to try and turn kicks meant for higher targets (above the knee) into low sweeps or take-downs, and the mechanics simply aren't there. Higher kicks, like anything else, are fine for their intended purpose. I was just trying to give an overview of our kicking system that mostly revolves around "really, really low" kicks :-)

   By Kenneth Sohl on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 12:51 pm: Edit Post

By the way, you are absolutely right about practicing with people from other schools. It was pointed out years ago, when I was studying Uechiryu, that to practice the bunkai of the kata Sesan was meaningless unless one's partner knew something about the sword (there is a sword-evasion technique toward the end in Uechi's version). To do otherwise would be devoid of proper "riai" (correct me if my transliteration is mis-spelled).

   By Backarcher on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 04:54 pm: Edit Post

Good info guys!

   By Mike Taylor on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:24 am: Edit Post

Kenneth Sohl,

As I understand it, in Seisan the outstretched hand & elbow combo near the end can be used to jam & counter a swordsman beginning to split downward with a sword from over his head (it can be used equally well against an unarmed opponent with only a slight modification/variation). Also, earlier, there's a turn with both hands low which can be used as a belt-grabbing-lift-&-move to move one opponent into the way of another (perhaps into the way of another sword-wielding opponent) -- but I prefer another method.

In Naihanchi, the low kicks & a few other moves can be used to cause an opponent to fall in a particular direction, perhaps then falling into another opponent's way as well as also being set up for a possible subsequent technique (if not yet finished off).

I understand "bunkai" as "breakdown" (aka. functions/applications), but I don't know "riai." I'm terrible with most foreign words. "Miai" or "maai" I believe is distance (but again, don't trust me with these foreign words).

Isshin-ryu & Uechi-ryu (Okinawian) Karate styles, plus Southern Mantis & Pak-Mei (Chinese) Kung-Fu styles -- you've studied some really good stuff.

Have you found one Karate or Kung-Fu form among these arts that you especially like?

   By Mike Taylor on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:01 pm: Edit Post

Kenneth Sohl,

Japanese -- if you please:

maai = distance

rai = rival/competition (possibly what one's up against)

baai = situation/case-at-hand (possibly what one's up against)

Again, don't trust me & my interpretations of foreign words.

   By Kenneth Sohl on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:26 pm: Edit Post

My understanding of "Riai" is that it is a word difficult to translate into western terms, so we could be talking about the same thing. I was led to understand that it means something akin to "combat essential" or "combat reality". As for the systems I studied, Isshinryu was my first exposure to something considerably different from the typical TKD and Shotokan stuff, so it left a strong impression on me, though I was only in it a few months before my sensei went to prison! Southern mantis was, to me, the ultimate in an art that would develop your body into a lethal weapon, though much of it may not be practical by today's politically correct standards. After my sifu had to leave the state, I searched for something like it, and found everything else wanting. I experimented with Uechiryu for a year, but found it already too commercialized. I have never studied Pak Mei, though I searched for a real sifu in it because it is related to SPM. If you go to Cheung Lai Cheun's son's website, there is a lineage chart showing that none of these pretenders in the US that claim to be teaching it openly are for real, although I almost moved out of state to study with a supposed "master". I like the Hakka arts, I have recently found a dragon-fist sifu who is fortunately only a couple of hours drive from me who is willing to teach me up to a point, so I intend to carry on.

   By Mike Taylor on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 12:34 am: Edit Post

Kenneth Sohl,

I once looked all over the place to find just a book on Pak Mei (White Eyebrow Kung Fu if I recall correctly), because I had heard some things about it that I liked & was intrigued with. I've subsequently lost the book, but I do recall some things about the art. It seemed simple in form -- & I like simple. Then (as now apparently) there were no commercial/public schools teaching it in the states. I seem to recall a teacher in Malaysia (but I'm uncertain about this memory).

How was your Uechi-ryu commercialized? In Garden Grove, California there's a great Uechi-ryu school (at an instructor's home). It doesn't smack of being commercial. If interested, then let me know. They're hard-core practitioners.

My first Tai-Jutsu instructor studied Southern Praying Mantis & demonstrated some, but he has since focused on teaching only Tai-Jutsu (plus he's a bit wild/uninhibited with his moves -- easy to get injured studying anything with him).

I once met Scott Cohen at a buddy's apartment. He seemed to be a nice guy. I liked his two Mantis videos as well -- his moves were simple & to the point. Have you seen them? If so, then what's your take on them?

Was your Shotokan Karate Nishiyama lineage or Oshima lineage? I've dabbled in both -- they're practiced quite differently. I have more time invested in Nishiyama's way, but I prefer Oshima's way (as with his way it was more easy for me to generate power & to execute moves in general).

Looks like you've had some trouble being able to stay with an instructor & art. Been there... doing that. I think you'd like Xing-Yi. Where do you live?

   By Kenneth Sohl on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 02:02 am: Edit Post

I live in Florida, Mike. I did TKD as a kid and fought a few Shotokan guys, but that was many years ago. Never heard of Scott Cohen, but I used to do Taijutsu before I decided on sticking with SPM completely. Though very different, taijutsu is great stuff! As for what I consider "commercialized", well, that's anything open to the general public! Lol, I know that sounds crazy, and I certainly don't mean that as some sort of end-all definition, but I have adopted the rather clannish and secretive outlook of my old sifu. My taijutsu instructor told us to be selfish when it came to the martial arts. Yes, Mike, I would JUMP at a chance to learn genuine Xing-Yi, it has always fascinated me, but after all that I've seen (or more importantly, what I HAVEN'T seen) I wouldn't just take some "sifu" with a load of cardboard credentials at face value. Like religion, MA in the US turns a lot of profit at the expense of fools. For instance, look at all this SPM controversy online. At the risk of fanning the flames, if these idiots actually knew what they were talking about, they wouldn't be flapping their lips and embarassing themselves. Conversely, I get the impression that CIMAs are more open in dealing with the public. My 2 cents, for what its worth....

   By Mike Taylor on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 11:48 pm: Edit Post

Kenneth Sohl,

There's a section on this board for requesting school info. Perhaps Tim knows someone teaching the real deal down your way?

Good luck with your training.

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