Tim, what about a few that you have met? Could they beat you up?

Tim, what kind of tournaments do Hsing-Yi and Tai Chi practitioners enter, as far as rules? What made you decide on "internal" arts for rough-and-tumble competitions, considering their reputation at the time?

Snoopy,
They probably could have beat me up, but that wouldn't have been polite.

Kenneth,
Practitioners of any art can enter open competitions. The free fighting competitions are usually put on either by specific martial arts organizations, schools or local government. The rules in the tournaments I fought in allowed all striking techniques (except strikes to the groin or throat), all types of throws and takedowns (but there is a time limit for standing clinches). Ground fighting is not allowed. There are also "push hands" competitions for Taiji players (I never participated in these).

The Xing Yi fighters at the time were among the best fighters and most successful competitors.

I'm torn. I do believe in what Chris was trying to say. And European, thanks for those beautiful words. I copied them.

I probably would of been more of a believer if I hadn't of entered the world of Mixed Martial Arts. The truth is simple there. You train for years punching in the air and you get knocked out or choked out when fighting someone who trains "live" against a non-resistant opponent.

I truly believe there are exceptionally few old masters who are seriously dangerous to a young modern combat artist...not martial artist.

I do believe a few of the stories. Anything is possible.

But, I also know the importance of physical attributes first hand. I deal with it almost everyday in Judo, grappling, kickboxing and MMA.

I also know that a real unarranged fight has no favors...anything is possible, but luck, physical and mental attributes usually win.

I also hold a deep kindred for the traditional martial arts for their value exceeds physicality.

Backarcher,

I'd bet that the average person today "punching in the air" (a.k.a. practicing a form) doesn't really understand the form being practiced, whereas the old dangerous masters do have such understanding (so that they're training & reinforcing both physical & mental skills readily adaptable to combat when they practice their form or forms).

Mike, I'd like to believe it. Tradition wants me to believe it.

But, it's just a matter of basic logic. I can study books and manuals on how to drive a car. I can practice taking a car apart and putting it back together for years. I can sit in the driver's sit of a hundred different cars and simulate driving. I can give lectures on the details of driving a car.

Yet.......but that person's skills would fail in comparison to a person who has actually raced a car in NASCAR event or one who had driven cross country.

You have to "Just do it".

Even me, with years of "full-contact striking" and grappling experience has a very difficult time if I go months without sparring, and then go against someone younger who has been sparring regularly with tough guys.

These aren't just words, stories or mystical concepts. These are matters I see and encounter everyday and have witnessed for years.

I can't tell many stories about "old masters" that have been handed down through generations. But I can tell you about what I've seen and experience for myself.

My first JKD/BJJ/Golden gloves instructor use to destroy me on the mat and in the ring. He moved out of town and began teaching rich people "technique" and cardio kickboxing. He didn't have the opportunity to spar or grapple. Well, four months later he came back for a visit. I had been training sparring/grappling regulary with tough guys. We grappled and I DESTROYED him. I was shocked. He was my teacher. He was more skilled. He had more knowledge. But....

Even he admitted, that you must train "alive" to be efficient in a "live" situation and that his lack of ring and mat time hurt him.

Timing and sensitivity are so important. You can't get that standing in a "horse stance", doing forms in the air, meditating or deep thinking about a concept. You have to get that dynamic feel of another human being resisting your intentions.

Now, if you fight someone else who follows a similar training concept of "no aliveness", then you can possibly win(all is equal), be a legend, have people tell stories about you for decades.

There are always exceptions, but few.

This is no different than professional athletes of today. If the Lakers, Raiders, or Yankees only played against high school teams, no matter how good they think they are they would fall to a team who was use to playing tough experienced pro teams.

Do you think a pro boxer could just do heavy and speed bag work, and shadow boxing and still contend with a boxer who spars daily with tough sparring partners and who has fought in matches against top ten contenders? We are not talking about egos or an artform here, but people who see boxing as their only way out of poverty.

A boxer wouldn't dare risk his life and dollars, by depending on shadowboxing alone, even though I'm sure the boxer who know the meaning of every combination he threw in the air.

I'm not even going to really get into the concept of "toughness" and taking a punch, fall, choke or lock. But...

When I go without sparring for awhile, that first punch I take is....memorable!

It takes about a dozen rounds before my mind and body gets use to taking the punching again. I can't imagine what would happen if I'd never been punched before.

Uyeshiba, fought regularly as a youth and young man...he had to. And he did it against many different styles and weapons.He did various forms of live wrestling and Jujitsu Yet, there are millions who believe they can develop what he had "without" experiencing those "live" situations. It's almost a "con" job.

There is a saying, "Any art works well in a fight...as long as you've also trained in grappling and boxing".

No disrepect...just my opinion,

Robert

Robert - Backarcher,
you are very welcome but it was Buddha to deserve credit, I guess.

First I would like to say that your post is really interesting indeed. Tells about real stuff, it means a lot to me. All you say about the reality of fighting is damn true. " If you want to learn to fight well then do fight a lot!"(Wang Xiang Zhai).
But the original topic it was not old sportsmen vs. young champions. Sport is for the young, no doubt about it. The original position taken by me - who by the way practice strenous martial sports for test- and others, was that some specific practice permitt old men to fight youngs and win, just that.
A specific and prolonged total immersion in the sport mentality can definitely slow down the blossoming of different qualities that are not sought in the sports, qualities that are very necessary for fighting when old. This does not mean that a young champion isn't good at fighting, of course.It just means that some arts where designed to be a way of life, to go with the pratictioner for all his time on this planet, developing an energy and an awareness that cannot be found in sports, believe me.
Since I like your politeness and ability in writing, I hope you don't get angry for what I'm going to say. If you do then I apologize in advance 'cause I don't mean so: the fact that you haven't seen yet a demostration of an internal art, effective in the hands of an oldster, means nothing, sorry. It was like me saying Australia doesn't exist since I've never seen the wild kangaroo's land with my own eyes..

If the Lakers played soccer against brazilian veterans of the 1982 world cup, how many goals would they swallow before leaving the field?

No offense taken, European.

You are right.

Thanks!

Robert

Back-Archer: Would the fighters of a century ago have spied on other schools' techniques and training regimens? Hell, yes, in a heartbeat! I'm just skeptical of "mixed" martial artists, cuz you gotta do a system for some years to truly understand it. A lot of people run out and pick and choose from the viewpoint of their lack of understanding, then think they've "created" their own "style". Most of what they pick and choose from are sports-oriented arts. 0 + 0 still = 0. And after all the forms, conditioning and sparring are done, there is still one more level of training left, which most never pursue.

Everyone should have their own style. Most styles were created around one man's view point and catering to his needs. Later, he expands it to include others.

I feel we should find out what's right for us, not clothing ourselves with the martial cloak of another man's vision, but to follow one of the highest virtues of martial arts....self-discovery.

I teach yoga. I'm constantly telling my students that they cannot compare their bodies in a pose with someone else's. No one is made the same way, our have the same genetic makeup, same old injuries, diet.....You cann't even compare yourself to yourself the day before. Different diet, sleep, stress... You must be in the present moment. You must DO YOUR YOGA FOR YOUR BODY.

A style is a canvas. You are the artist!

Buddha said that all suffering was linked to attachment. In Mixed Martial Arts, we had to learned that the hard way. Many come in "attached" to one philosophy, concept or veiwpoint, only to be embarrassed by their closemindedness. Many of the moderned fighters of today are not attached to one art. Therefore they have less to "unlearn".

Oh, and if they don't want to get killed, they have to chose from a sports oriented art.

The level of training that many traditionlist believe the MMA fighter of today lack. Is something they get...well as the Dog Brothers say, "Higher Consciousness" through harder contact.

Ego sleeps in all of our souls. But a successful MMA fighter usually has to be very humble to train with someone who specializes in a certain area of combat. He boxes with boxers. Wrestles with wrestlers. Kicks will kickers. Grapples with BJJ experts. He will most likely be less skilled in all areas and get a "whuppin".

Just the concept of "trusting" and "having faith" that your partner or opponent will let you go when he has a lock or choke on you is a great virtue. He has your life in his hands.

"The ego is a greater nemesis when you do not have to exercise your skills."

Sorry guys, I got off the subject.

I'll say no more. Great input FROM EVERYONE!

"Your way is the way"

Backarcher,

I'd bet that those ol' masters who "punch in the air" also have (or had) hands-on experience as well (but their training isn't/wasn't exclusively hands on). There are exercises that help one to build muscle memory/skill & reinforce mental awareness -- exercises that would lead to bone dislocations & breaks if practiced with full speed & range-of-motion with a partner. Such exercises are great for training one's body to go all the way with a technique.

Tai-Ji & Karate martial-art forms have been practiced mainly for health or sport these days, yet they're quite devestating martial arts (when, & only when the martial applications/principles are understood). These martial-art forms include both solo & partner practices in their curriculum. Some of the solo practice is done as if "punching in the air." As you stated, modern western boxers train both solo & with a partner (& this was my point too -- that both types of training supplement & complement to create the total product -- but I didn't spell it out above).

Backarcher,
I agree with everything you said about the necessity of realistic, non-cooperative training. I just want to clarify a point about traditional training (leaving aside the old master vs. young champion question).

Granted, most "traditional" schools you see nowadays seem to emphasize forms and some type of cooperative training as the bulk of their practice, but this is the modern trend. As they were originally practiced the "traditional" schools (at least the IMA styles I have practiced), included a great amount of non-cooperative sparring training.

In my Xing Yi Quan school in Taiwan, for example, besides the conditioning, forms and technique training, we sparred with contact every session. We also praticed alot of standing grappling drills. The sparring practices weren't modern innovations, they were the traditional methods included in the style. There was also alot of sparring training in the Zhao Bao Taijiquan.

When you hear stories about the old masters of the Asian martial arts who were formidable fighters into old age, it shouldn't be any harder to believe than stories of Dempsy at 70 knocking out muggers or Helio today ready to roll with all comers. They all went through similar training, with as much contact sparring as punching air.

Thanks, Tim. I don't know why so many on these forums think that "traditional" means "non-contact". Also, on other posts, I mentioned "sticking hands". In the hardcore traditional systems, this exercise progresses from stationary to pre-arranged footwork to random footwork, then eventually turns into freefighting. I do NOT mean the stationary, limp arm wrestling I see so often in the more disreputable wing chun schools. Backarcher: each of us can't help but have our own style, no matter how hard we try to look like someone else. I couldn't agree with you more, most "styles" are mixtures of other styles that came before them. I'm just saying that before one tries to mix-and-match, one must see what he needs, first. A few years of hard training in a traditional system is the best way of doing the job. Before one can find his way with a map, he must first have a point of reference.

Tim and Ken,

I apologize for any dispect or ignorance perceived by my post. I know little about how they trained/train in China or Taiwan then/now. I have studied CMA in the states and enjoyed all of the training and nice people I worked with.

I also apologize for failing to point out that the core of what I believe has nothing to do with traditional art vs non-traditional, but rather the "contents of your training method".

I should not of spoken about anything I know nothing about(how they trained in ancient China).

I still want to go to Taiwan and study, before I get too old(time might be running out).

Ken, even though I respect the traditional arts, I don't agree that training for years in a traditional system is the best way before you integrate. I believe that training in "any" system traditional or non-traditional initially has its value or just being a good athlete. We can agree to disagree, but I truly admire your heart and dedication, nonetheless.

Robert

Backarcher,
"Contents of your training method" Exactly! I try to get the point across constantly that the method of training is the key to actual ability.

No apologies necessary. I think we were thinking of totally opposite things when we used the term "traditional". We each can only go by what we have been exposed to. As I have percieved "traditional" arts, they are never only striking, or grappling, etc. My kung fu has stand-up grappling, but it is used in conjunction with the priniples that govern the rest of the art, therefore, it would be detrimental for me to learn aikido to do the sweeping wrist-twists that would compromise my principles of movement (incidentally, aikijitsu, the combat version, does have several strikes). My kung fu also has ground fighting, but it mostly revolves around its particular usage of strikes. On the notion of basing oneself in a traditional art, I believe that especially in the CIMA, there are principles that one must internalize through long hard training before one can understand their benefits. Once internalized, however, you could apply them to other styles as well. Without developing these subtle whole body movements (which are often not discernable to an outside observer) one is only waving their arms or legs. Your remark about training methodology has given me an inspiration. I have been trying to find a sparring system that can suit my system in a relatively unfettered way. The weakness of most sparring is that it is most effective against someone who does what you do. An open type competition must have more generic rules out of necessity. A friend of mine is a shootfighter, he has been showing me some of it. Why not train him in sticking hands? It should fit right in with what he does. True, it could develop his ability to detect my moves, however, the opposite is also true, as well as show me my weaknesses. Here, I am noting your statement about trust. No man is an island, I guess. Thanks for stimulating my grey matter a little. It needed it

It'd be great if you could try the 'traditional' method of typing by pressing 'enter' occasionally

to

break up

your text.

Bob #2

Tim wrote:

"The Xing Yi fighters at the time were among the best fighters and most successful competitors."

Why is this the case...that tai chi and ba gua and other arts have such a hard time in usage. Something I've noticed over the years. Is Xing Yi a simplier style?

My comment wasn't meant to imply that practitioners of other styles could not fight or compete successfully, there were many good fighters from alot of different styles (and, as usual, many fighters cross trained in different styles).

I think one reason there were so many Xingyiquan practitioners that could really fight is that the style attracts people who have real fighting ability as a primary goal of training. The forms aren't necessarily "pretty" or fun to practice, and the training is relatively hard. People that want to train recreationally or just like the form aspect of training more than likely wouldn't choose Xingyiquan.

In addition, the training methods of Xingyiquan have been timed tested and proven effective.

Great points Tim, Thanks.

When you say the training is hard what do you mean by this?

When you say the methods of Xingyi have been time tested haven't all the big 3 systems been time tested? I think they're famous masters/fighters from all the styles.