Edward,

you're welcome. Not many people know that Yip Chun started to learn W.C. only AFTER his father passed away. My father used to teach engeniering at the university but I always hated mathematics..

Kenneth,

I strongly believe that anyone should practice the art/style/substyle he likes, that make him feel good and honestly helps his balls grow a little bit.

Please notice that I mentioned Dr. Leung Ting only 'cause I was directly asked for, and it was the first time for me. I already regret it, since I do not get money from him nor the opposite.
My dear friend, maybe I'm a wag(?) anyhow, but it should be clear for an 'expert' to understand if the other person knows at least what is talking about.

Opinions mean nothing. An opinion's value is a big fat ZERO. What if my opinion is that California borders South Africa or Sweden? Important is only what you can screen, value and find seriously useful.

OK, you're starting to talk like a wag again....LOL, just kidding, european. I was referring to how sometimes you talk almost like a buddhist. I am usually suspicious of westerners who claim to follow eastern religions (not that you made such a claim) is all. And you are right, you didn't mention Dr Ting's name until asked, but until you are, there is no need. Yes, that post proved you know what you are talking about.

Kenneth,

original buddhism isn't a religion. Religio (pron. reh-lee-gio)is a latin word that means 'to reconnect with', therefore a religion is a structured way to reconnect with God. Buddhism is an atheist system, a technique more or less. And you are perfectly right, I never made such a claim nor I do it know.
Thanks for saying I know what I'm talking about, nice to hear that. I never doubted you knew yourself what you were talking about

For Those Interested In Wing Chun,

I would recommend "Wing Tsun Kuen" by Master Leung Ting, B.A., 10th Level M.O.C. (originally copyrighted in Hong Kong in 1978). A copy that found its way into my collection (3d ed., 1979) doesn't have an ISBN number because it's most-likely pre-ISBN (sorry guys). I think (but I'm not positive) that a more recent (mid-1990's) edition went by the spelling of "Ving Tsun Kuen."

Leung Ting writes that his art is named after a student of the art's founder. The founder, Ng Mui, wasn't impressed with a complicated, low-(forward)-stanced Buddhist martial art which emphasized two-or-three years of standing-practice/strength-training before teaching any technique: an art she had learned at a monastery. Rather, she was impressed by principles of simple movement when combined with mobility. She developed an art form favoring a higher-(rearward)-stanced posture (much like Sun-style Ba-Gua & Xing-Yi) which allowed for greater mobility, and combined this mobility with a few simple hand & arm movements. Her student, Wing Chun, mastered this new martial art after living & training with her for three years. Later, Wing Chun married & taught her husband -- a guy who liked boxing.

European,
Very interesting information on WC. I'd never heard the Daoist origins theory before (what about all those stories about the badass girl learning from a Buddhist nun!?)

Andrew,
Interesting, it sounds like your approach to clinch fighting is much like the approach used in Xingyiquan.

Interesting, I never heard of the taoist origins before for WC, can you provide evidence?

I understand more similarities than differences among the southern arts generally classified as both internal and external such as WC, and, see considerably less similarities between WC and both taoist arts and IMA.

My friend learned from Kho and Wang Kiu. Wang Kiu paid big $$$ and was a private student. He learned things to completion in a way that no other student learned. He also learned "something" that no other student learned, including LT, sorry only indoor students know what that is. It may appear that LT is not The Chosen One... ;)

rumbrae, can you provide evidence of this?

Please don't take Leung Ting's historical information too seriously. His is just one view on Wing Chun history and is extremely self-serving.

As to claims of primacy- he's good and knows much. Leung Ting has been exploring the mainland branches of Wing Chun near as long as anyone from Yip Man line, and has a vast experience of the art. There's other good stuff out there, though.

Tim,

I think the approaches are pretty similar, based on what I've seen of your published material. Hopefully I can make it down your way in the next few months and can give you some idea of what we do and get some direct exposure to your take on things.

BTW- thanks, I've gone through a couple of copies of 'Practical Chin-Na' and 'Effortless Combat Throws' pressing them on my training partners.

Later,

Andrew

P.S. Rene's 'Yuen Kay Sai Wing Chun' remains the best survey Wing Chun book out there. 'On Single Combat' does the best job of conveying basic theory according to WT.

Tim,

Taoist origin of W.C. is plain evidence. The anatomical structure, its principles (i.e. not to oppone force vs. force), emission of power etc. demonstrate this. Precisely it's a taoist internal art, truly similar to Xingyi and old Taichi in many ways. I support what AndrewS stated: those book are probably the best on the subject. I favour 'On single combat'.

The Shaolin legend -because it's a legend- does not negate a taoist origin of W.C. Many arts where practiced at Shaolin, and interferences between taoism and buddhism were really frequent, at high levels, as we can see in C'han (zen) buddhism.
Chinese were very pragmatic and considered taoism as the law of the nature, buddhism the law of the mind and confucianism the law of the society: sincretism.
I also heard with my own ears dr. Leung Ting say that making W.C. derivate from Shaolin was at that time like giving it a patent, certifing a distinguished origin that he absolutely did not believe to be. More is found in 'On s.comb'.

I strongly believe that taoism is a way of doing things, a way of life, which teaches to move according to Nature. In taoism we refuse to waist energy resisting a superior force, we slide around it, and W.C. perfectly demontrates its taoism just watching an expert performing it. Please don't forget that there are as many false, self-proclaimed W.C experts as insulting ridiculous taichi 'dancers' out there.

rumbrae,

opposite to you I see no similarities between W.C. and some southern China styles, as Choy Lee Fut, Hung gar, Hung Fut etc. Not in the structure, not in the principles, not in the tactics. Quite the opposite is true, meaning that Wing Chun looks perfectly designed to destroy those styles. If you have time, check Leung Ting's video 'Authentic Wing Tsun': his favourite target is that group of arts. Also interesting as a source of information on this subject is 'On single combat' from K.R. Kernspecht.

All the serious W.C. sifu that I met, for what it may matter, regarded their art as the 'counter-system' of China. Not a style (variation), a completely different system.

Hey folks, following along with the nice conversation here & figured I’d chime in.
Background being Hsing-I & Wing Chun. Nice to meet y’all. And AndrewS, nice to meet you again!

You can pretty much sum up WC’s history by saying – nobody knows for certain where it came from. For those interested, there are some websites that provide copious information. I’d start with the above mentioned Rene Ritchie’s site.
Buddhist vs Taoist etc? The legend says Buddhist, but there’s not much else that seems to be in common with other such systems. There is considerable doubt about the Ng Mui (aka Wu Mei) legend. One reason being she’s also been used as a founding figure for several other completely different martial arts styles.

European says regarding a Taoist origin -
The anatomical structure, its principles (i.e. not to oppose force vs. force), emission of power etc. demonstrate this. Precisely it's a taoist internal art, truly similar to Xingyi and old Taichi in many ways.

From its principals, you could more easily say Confuciuns developed it! If you look at the Kuen Kuit sayings, remarkably few are along Taoist lines. I’ll agree that there are now some significant similarities with internal styles. At what stage in the systems development these became obvious would be interesting to know. It’s not particularly evident from the forms. The main ‘no force against force’ where it’s noticeable is in Chi Sau. How long that’s been part of the system as such is another interesting question.

He also says -
I see no similarities between W.C. and some southern China styles, as Choy Lee Fut, Hung gar, Hung Fut etc

Now there’s some interesting phrasing. Technically correct, but not mentioning the significant group of – Mantis, Pak Mei, certain varieties of White Crane etc. Hakka styles? There is a definitely a group of Southern styles that have a core of similar methods.

Alex

Hey Alex,

you gonna make it out to Cali again sometime soon?

To you and European,

there is no established historical chain for Wing Chun back to the E-mei mountains, according to my understanding.

It seems Chinese philosophy and intellectual thinking frequently gets attached to arts after the fact. It seems of little relevance to application, and is mainly pr.

The 'internal' thing- Wing Chun is a way of moving, set of strategies, group of conditioning exercises for learning and marrying those two things, and some techniques. Sometimes it uses the whole body in ways shared by the arts Alex mentions. Sometimes it just uses piece. Dunno if that's 'internal' or not. Sigman would say not. Personally, I could give less of a damn. I learn how to move, I use the motion, I improve both those things. The rest is irrelevant.

Later,

Andrew

Alex,

I agree with you, there are few slight similarities in few additional training methods, the rest being absolutely different, especially with White Crane who could be called the most different style from W.C.

Alex,
I don't understand what you mean when you say that chinese philosophy and intellectual thinking gets attached to the arts after the fact. Is it like saying that german(austrian) culture got attached to Mozart's music after he wrote it?
But you are right, probably is irrelevant. Just want to notice that some of the most famous and proficient instructors of this system wrote a lot of pages describing the taoist nature of W.C.[see above posts for biblio ref.].

- the rest being absolutely different, especially with White Crane who could be called the most different style from W.C. -

I suppose that would depend on what you were looking for & which style of White Crane.

I expect this was to Andrew,
- I don't understand what you mean when you say that chinese philosophy and intellectual thinking gets attached to the arts after the fact. Is it like saying that german(austrian) culture got attached to Mozart's music after he wrote it?
But you are right, probably is irrelevant. Just want to notice that some of the most famous and proficient instructors of this system wrote a lot of pages describing the taoist nature of W.C.[see above posts for biblio ref.]. -

OK,for example, how much of Tai Chi’s philosophy was created by the scholarly folk in Chen village rather than later doctors and aristocrats that had the time & education to fit it together?
So, wing chun is developed by group X.. What we have left from that time are certain forms, certain phrases, historical legends and training drills which include chi sau. What I was saying was that the only particularly Taoist thing would be in the assorted chi sau practices which, haven’t been demonstrated to go back more than a few generations. There are a couple of phrases, true, but mostly they indicate more of a dedication towards efficiency than any particularly obvious religious bent. Basically what one would expect if it found its origins in a migrant ethnic culture rather than a temple.
So, the question would be, how far back does this Taoist flavour go back?
For the bibliographic references, from what I could see we have Leung Ting & Rene Ritchie. The latter, I've read in detail and FWIR makes no mention of it. Leung Ting? Well from Mike Taylor's post above, back in the late 70's it appears he believed in the Ng Mui legend. I assume there is more in his & Keith Kernspecht's later works? While he has an obvious bias in some things, he certainly has had access to plenty of sources over the years. Perhaps you would mention some of their findings?

I agree fairly well with the arts you mentioned, however there are so many undiscovered arts(from a western perspective) in China. Take six elbows and all the related arts that Chun Man Sit knows of. Take a look at Roger Hagood's work and amazing presence in Asia and all what he discovered, just from a southern mantis perspective. I bet there are dozens, and even more before Yip Man's time that are very similar to WC. WC did not grow up in a vacuum.

Yr sifus obviously did not travel China much.

Name some taoist arts and demonstrate the similarities with WC. For example, regardless of the style of WC, they all have the same passive aggression that almost always moves forward. Bagua does not.

The kali I learned is more daoist than wing chun, and has a better chi sao for realistic defence on the street than WC. Funny thing is try to find a strong presence of WC and Daoism or history of it in the philippines that had a significant influence ;)

Alex,

I don't have to convince you, you can perfectly find out by yourself. I mentioned two interesting books and a video, that's it..

rumbrae,
my sifu was dr. Leung Ting. Do you think the thousand of miles he traveled around China were enough for you? I trained also with direct students of Alan Fong, Victor Kan, William Cheung, Alan Lamb etc. etc.
I suggest you two interesting books:
"Roots and branches of Wing Chun" ; Leung Ting
"The Ving Chun family tree" ;many auth.

You know something? You saying that kali (n: I trained directly with Renee Latosa and Bill Newman) has better chisao than W.C., sounds like some islamic mullah going to the Pope and claiming he's more chatolic than JohnPaul the II.

I don't know if you live near South cali area like many that post here, but in the case would you please visit a friend of mine and show me -through him- your super kali chisao? His name is Emin Boztepe, found at www.ebmas.net.

Isn't Roger Hagood the guy who had a video taken of himself drunkenly beating up a 65 yr old man who claimed to be "Pak Mei", then made copies he mailed out?

I just went to Emin Boztepe's site. Isn't he the guy who issued a challenge to one of the Gracies, then suddenly retracted it when Gracie answered it?

- I don't have to convince you, you can perfectly find out by yourself. I mentioned two interesting books and a video, that's it..

True.
I've seen the video. I look forward to seeing his book sometime. Always good to get more information!
Nice chatting.

Damn...I stopped by Shenwu and thought I had walked right into the WC forum on KFO.

BTW> Don't you guys know that HFY WC is the REAL WC that can be traced all the way back to the Red Junk Opera? *smirk*

If you guys are interested in WC check out Rene Ritchie's site: http://www.wingchunkuen.com. He has not updated it in awhile, but you can get a pretty good idea as to all the branches of the WC tree.