Kenneth,

the whole thing of the challenge is history now but, just because YOU asked: Emin issued a worldwide open challenge to the Gracie family. Gracies never accepted, but the text of that challenge can still be found on the internet.

There's available an old Emin video on the market in Europe, through the magazine 'Budo International', where Boztepe derides and challenges Rorion Gracie, but Rorion never showed up.
Once Robin Gracie gave a seminar in my country and a martial art magazine reported he would face Emin. Robin's national representative wrote a letter of excuse that I have seen.

Emin is a friend of mine and everybody in SoCali can stop by for more info. Especially those who are interested in meeting a nice, warm person, somebody who stands for his own art very much.

Thanks for setting the record straight, European.

That just leaves someone to explain away Roger Hagood's video of himself (apparently high or drunk) brawling against a little senior citizen as evidence of his "deadliness".

*PLEASE DON'T REOPEN THAT DAMN GRACIE FEUD*

I was around for the beginning of that when sifu was in fight-shape and ready to go, and I'd prefer not to be on the other end of that again.

Brief politics thing- the original UFC publicity had Rorion (as part owner of SEG) issuing an open challenge to a number of people, including sifu Emin and a couple of people he counts as friends (Gene LaBell and Benny Urquidez). Much back and forth ensued (e-mail me if you want the whole painful saga, fueled by over-eager whack-job students on rec-ma from both sides), and nothing happened.

Today, as far as I know, sifu has a problem with only one member of the Gracie family- Rorion. Somehow this is not surprising.

My best friend has rolled under Rickson's association for the last 6 years, and a number of sifu's students train in BJJ (under John Machado, the Top Team guy down in OC, and in various associations around the country).

Relations are cordial and respectful from both sides. Please don't reopen old b.s.

Lastly- this was a nice technical discussion, which has been rapidly coopted into politics and history. Can I request that these things be taken back to KFO, the VTAA board, McDojo, and various other sites before the Sysop quite reasonably decides to automatically kill-file any thread with Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/ Ving Tsun in it? Please?

Later,

Andrew

Tim,

from a Xing Yi perspective, if you're in a standing clinch with mutual head and arm control (one hand on neck, one on elbow), is it considered a reasonable strategy to knee directly, or do you stick with low kicks, and only knee to counter knees? For that matter, if you're stuck in the plum how do you deal with knees?

My understanding for priorities in order of preference for us is:
1). Break out of the plum
2). Raise the knee to obstruct and counter-knee
3). Off-balance to disrupt the knee
The above all require a reasonably straight spine and maintainence of upright posture. 2 seems to be used more than 3.
4). If broken forward, keep elbow control, and drop the elbows down and in so the quad hits the point of the elbow
5). Swim under, covering the head with the hands- I haven't really worked this last one much, it's last-ditch recovery stuff, so I can't comment too well on it.

Andrew

Relax, Andrew, I wasn't trying to "re-open" anything. I had heard something 5th-hand or so, so I simply asked about it, and was informed by knowledgeable people (including you) about the truth behind it. Thank you.

Sheesh. All this talk about Wing Chung. Can anyone name more than one song by them that hit the charts?

head and arm control? pull their head down when they knee.

Andrew,
Meynard beat me to it. Our basic strategy in the high tie-up when the opponent knees is simply to move our hips back a little and jerk his head forward. He will be forced to put his striking leg down before it lands.

If you are caught with both hands behind your head and the opponent understands how to unbalance you before he knees, we always bring the hands and arms down to protect the body and face from the knees, and if we aren't able to duckunder, we shoot a single or double leg takedown. In this position it is often possible to absorb the knee strike on the arms then catch the leg for the takedown.

If we control the balance in the tie-up, direct knees are good, usually thrown after pulling the opponent to the side a little to disrupt his balance.

Meynard,

I'm asking a different question- would you knee directly from that position.

Pulling down the head doesn't seem a good option in the plum.

Later,

Andrew

european,

Ok, I beleive you, LT has travelled China. He may have even gone to the moon but that has nothing to do with my statement of WC similarities to other arts.

You originally said WC was daoist, stop conniving and answer my previous questions... You still haven't addressed the daoist nature of WC other than linking religious thoughts with style of movement.

My statement was "The kali I learned is more daoist than wing chun, and has a better chi sao for realistic defence on the street than WC". Realistic defence in the street is when the opponent is armed, you are not, and you are surprised or you don't recognized he is armed until it is too late.

I don't understand why you keep quoting other people, but Renee Latosa and Bill Newman are merely who they are and what they showed you, which is very limited in the grand scheme of MA in the phillipines.

I learned balintawak. It closes the gap and sticks just like wing chun, the big diference being that the opponent can have a knife or stick of any shape or size. I had to "unlearn" my WC so I wouldn't get cut to shreds in the blink of an eye. WC against a knife is like sticking yr hands in a blender. There are many small details of difference, and with a knife you only need a slight touch to bleed.

Sure, I would be glad to demonstrate "realistic self defense on the street", why should I be afraid to arm myself with my weapon of choice and surprise Emin and let him defend himself - how nice of you to delegate him to that task ;)

You keep hiding behind other people's names and now are using them to challenge me personally, now there's an act of faith in your OWN skill and knowledge...

Hey, Rumbrae, what if I surprised you with my Colt M1911? Think you could "stick" to my .45 slugs? Heheheh.

By the way, Sysop, that was a purely hypothetical question. ("My god, he was raving on the internet....!")

Ken,

This leads to another dimension lacking in WC - I would stick to your "intention" which is as deep as a mud puddle, so no problem!

dearest rumbrae,

I hide behind other people? Sorry, I didn't notice that, infact I indeed thought I over-spoke.
I'm sorry you didn't go to university, it's my fault, I should have asked. I just used the international system of addressing sources, something you seem unable to do.

I consider your definition of Rene Latosa purely childish and I would like you to ask how would you be able to demonstrate that. Infact I asked you if you reside in So Cali to have a live feedback.

I didn't 'challenge' you, my boy, 'cause I have nothing to demonstrate: I didn't say I was better than somebody else or that my style-system-school was better either. You did it, in a very ridiculous way. Chisao belongs to Wing Chun, everybody in this board knows it, and it's your duty to demonstrate you possess a kali-chisao (better than the original one) that nobody has ever heard.
Then I strongly suggest to go 'surprise' Emin and show us all how good you are at this. A real act of faith in your aloud spoken talent..

Hi,

well, I would sincerely appreciate that anyone who comes after me gives me a shout-out first. But, on the subject of Daoism; if I understand European correctly, his point is that WC --of whatever stripe-- emerges from an important and well known Chinese cultural construct. Personally, I think that some elements of Daoism, Buddhis and Confucianism are present in all Chinses arts, including cooking In my experience, it is also misleading to consider tcc a Daoist martial art and Shaolin to be Buddhist. To say that tcc is based on originally Daoist principles, or the principles of the Yiching is, imo, more accurate; and, might even be used to explain the art's approach to strategy and tactics. Yet, the "master/disciple" relationship seems, to me at least, to be more Confucian. Anyway, iinm, the altar and incense and offerings are also Buddhist, no? SO, I think,at this point in time, it's very difficult to classify cmas along these religious lines. Add Muslims in the mix and it gets even more complicated. Oh well, my two yuan, or fen.

Best,
Steve James

european,

Did LT teach you that conniving and insulting is a demonstration of the daoist nature of WC?

You prove my points

P.S. Since you feel everyone on the board is "behind" you, don't insinuate I am your "dearest" or your "boy".

Oh, so now I'm a "mud puddle", eh? Well, people have drowned in less, my friend. j/K, I know what you meant, Rumbrae, I guess it's a good come back when I'm sitting there wondering whether it was an insult or not. But Steve above makes a good point. A lot of this stuff is general chinese culture that extends into lots of areas other than MAs. "Buddhist martial arts"?? How? And all this 8 trigrams, 5 elements stuff was just tagged on after the fact by "intellectuals" trying to elevate what they, in their ignorance, percieved to be lowly pursuits 'til the day came when they needed it. Shove all those Yin/Yang theories, it is present in all things anyway. Just show me how to smash my enemies.

Ken,

Actually you made a great come back. You made my point exactly, that in the street it will be an ambush of greater odds - so now are all those years of training wasted?

I agree with Steve about religious influences. I understand where MA has used religious practices or modified them for martial purposes.

However, as eurpoean claims, was WC "built by taoist sages"? Would a TAOIST SAGE have any concern with developing "any possible advantage vs. other fighters" and better yet "who at that time were mainly practitioners of buddhist hard styles"?

Yup, a TAOIST SAGE like Lao Tze wakes up one day and sees the light! Instead of following the Tao, he decides to dedicate his life to martial expertise in standing pigeon toed while slapping bhuddists

I guess the Tao Te Ching got it all wrong
"Achieve results but not through violence,
for it is against the natural way,
and damages both others' and one's own true self."

By the way, old Lao spoke out against the 'qi kongs' of the day.