I understand that not everything he says is totally orthodox, and that he is Korean by birth, but I never really understood why so many posters here seem to think that he is full of BS. I have read both his books ( Collaborated on by Dan Miller, who seems to be respected in the CIMA world) and it seems like he has a very well thought out and "complete" approach to teaching. One thing I like most is he makes it clear that it is sequential, and requires a great deal of groundwork before anything remotely fancy is taught. He is one of the only IMA teachers that I have EVER heard of that de-emphasizes forms-based practice, and seems to be more focused on building real foundational skills. I feel like I am perhaps missing something, b/c the animosity often displayed towards him is strong. I get the Earl Montague thing, and "Dr." Painter as well, I believe I understand where the skepticism originates there. But I'm not sure I understand the dismissal of Park Bok Nam. I would like to here most from Tim, or any former students of Park's. I've never had a chance to have legit Ba Gua training ever, but I've have had Instructors who didn't know a thing about Ba Gua or fighting, and Park just doesn't seem like that. I dunno. I live in Williamsburg VA, and do not have access to much in the way of martial arts instruction. I have been debating taking a look at Park even though he is an hour's drive away. Would love to hear some more hands on experience. Thanks!

Hi Jason,
The books that Dan Miller wrote for Park are logical and well done, but I've never seen Park teach a class, so I can't comment on him as a teacher.

My advice would be to go and watch a few of his classes and see if what he teaches is what you are looking for.

Very true-
I guess what I wondered was what makes him so wrong in the eyes of the posters here. I find it really impossible to believe that they don't spar at all in his classes. Perhaps someone with firsthand experience could illuminate on that? I'm not in a position to drive out there for a while, so I'm just really curious. It's hard to read from the books what an actual class consists of. Also, it appears that his senior students do most of the teaching, while he's away at a summer camp or seminar... someone who knows, share with us. I am very curious. Thanks!

As far as I know, there is not much sparring in Park's method. I know they spend a lot of time drilling the basics.

Maybe people who have trained with Park can comment.

I'd like that. Anyone?

maybe you should ask Dan Miller what he thinks about Park and the books he helped Park publish.

jason,
This is a sensitive subject for me. I'll
try to confine my remarks to my personal
experience with Park's system.
A few relevant facts...
I have not studied with people in Park's
system in aproximately 6-9 months. It is possible
that the teaching methodology may have changed
somewhat in this time.
I did not study at the main school in Richmond,
only with student groups.
I was not exactly the most diligent student
in terms of practicing in my off time.
I got exactly one session a week of formal class
for the 3-4 years I was training with these folks.

That all said, I train filipino martial arts
now.. and I do it because quite frankly I am
interested in martial arts (emphasis on the
martial).
I still practice Park's material for fun,
and because I'm a stubborn bastiche...
especially the circle walking and ch'i kung
exercises. It's good for my hypertension
But I wouldn't fight with it, cause I CAN'T
fight with it. And frankly neither can the
vast majority of Park's students (Outside
Richmond Anyway, which is all I can speak too).
Park's student instructors can fight yes.
His two most senior are fearsome individuals.
It's important to understand what my beef
was/is with Sifu Park.
He is a bad ass fighter, and his fighting
is pure bagua. His senior students are also
good, and his 20year men are bad. His system
is good, and if you got to spar and do more
resisted applications it would be very nice.
Outside of Richmond though.. his system trains
good chi'kung, good body mechanics.. but they
don't really spar. Playing with combo palm
strikes against an opponent with boxing gloves
or doing partnered footwork drills is all I ever
saw (and I WAS a regular).
Maybe it's different in Richmond. I sure hope
so.
Totally different from full contact stick
work. Far less effective at building good
fighting skill IMHO.

just my two cents...
ask the man himself,
go to Richmond and speak to Park or Glen.
Find out if they spar in Richmond.
If they do and you can get in regular
class time with bagua training partners
you will be good to go.
If not..
I wouldn't waste my time or money (and I don't!).

In the time since I left Park's system I feel
like I have actually become a genuine martial
artist, as opposed to a poser. I know now
that I AM capable of practicing and training
hard given the right incentives. Those incentives
are fighting skill, bruises and the truth that
is discomfort.
I still love bagua, and will till I die. I
am hopeing to go to grad school in China, and
will likely get some lessons there from some
of the oldsters. I won't pretend they are
some holy Sifu though, not unless they can
show me their "work" (i.e. 2-4 year students
who can pummel me).
But I will never again pay for or pretend
that a system is truly a martial art unless
we come and fight and train to fight. Period.
Contact is the greatest teacher. I thought it
was "not enough practice". This is not so IMHO.
It is contact that motivates me to train.
Pain is wonderful for that.
End of rant...



regards,

JM I held off on this topic for while, curious to see what others would say. I agree with your assessment of PBNs teaching methods as esposed in the books and videos. In fact, I changed my training after that.

I see two issues here.

1. 'My master is true and everybody else is crap'. Very common, even among people who should know better.

2. Americans (99%) don't practice hard. If you go to class for one hour three times a week that's exercise, not serious training. (granted you can get some benefit from it and that varies with what you are practicing. Historically, any skilled person in the asian martial arts trained hours per day. In our culture we want to get right to the fun stuff. Few people are willing to spend a few years just to develop a foundation. This happened in Okinawa as well when karate began to become 'sporterized' after the 1880s and became more of a sport with each successive generation of practicioners.

When reviewing the PBN materials one learns, for example, of a series of upper body movements. Parks students are required to practice one 100 times daily for 3 months before moving on the the next. However Parks instructor required him to do each hundreds of repetitions for 6 months befor moving on to the next. Two of the core movements had to be practiced for one year each for before moving on.

Many people in classes are there for fun and exercise, even those out for serious fighting skill may not be aware of the work and time it can take to develop certain skills. Becase schools are money making business, few would survive with only the hard core students, and there's nothing wrong with people practicing to much lower levels of 'expertise' as long as they are aware of what they are doing or rather not doing without illusions.

If you can make the time, review all of Parks works again. Pick a few of the most basic movements and do each one for a minimum of one hour a day for at least six months or say, work up to a total for 100,000 repetitions each (left and right, forward and back to equal one count) Try this and see it it gives you a diferent outlook on what he is teaching.

- or find a school with a good teacher where you can spar and apply what you're learning in a noncooperative setting.

Doing a movement repetatively for months or years is great- I highly recommend it.

spending months or years in a school that doesn't condone noncooperative sparring -(if you're interested in seriously being able to fight)- is rediculous.

Shane

After I posted that it occured to me that some readers might think that I was knocking programs that give results in short times, not so. Some systems produce decent results and can be used without long training, and still have room for significant higherlevels of mastery. There are even weekend programs such as Payton Quinns that seem to produce dramatic results. Supposedly there was a saying that it took ten years before you could use Tai Chi, but it was worth the wait.

noillusions,

Sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you, hope that whatever you learned in that time you will be able to use it in the future.

Master Park System teaches you very good fundamental skills that you can use with any art.
These skills are not easy to come and they require a lot of patience and perseverance.
Master Park is able to figth with his art because he put the time and effort behind it, as you know.

In my experience it will be hard to be able to get the necesary reflexes,sensitivity and power to figth using his Pa Kua after training just 3 year, if fighting is what you want there are other arts that train you in a much shorter time, but not this Pa Kua.

I agree with you sparring is fundamental when you want to train how to fight, that is what i was taught at Park's school, however to fight with skills using IMA is not that easy and a rare treat to see someone that is able to use it like Master Park does.
Sparring without skills is only good to train bravery.
In today's MA is sad to go to a tournament and see all the different schools fight the same way, they all look the same like a street fight.
Why is that?,Why don't they use the technics they trained for?. Only boxers and wrestlers show that.


You know that not everybody has the same motivation and goals to study MA,not everybody is into just fighting or just health and in Master Park case in some schools/groups they do more figthing than in others, it all depends on who the people are and their level of progress.

Don't know where you trained at but in my school we are always researching applications and sparring,actually Sifu gets upset with us because we don't use protection gear.

Anyway is all good,We all belong to the same MA family. Good luck in your training.

Chi vediamo

Li Chin Wu

REALISTIC sparring is necessary, of course, but as one of my instructors used to say, "if you haven't developed proper movement as instinct, what are you going to use to spar with?" Good basics take at least several months to develop IF one is training very intensely (3 hours plus a day). Most don't want to do that these days. Filipino arts are much faster at developing some level of practical ability especially for the beginner, but still ultimately require similiar dedication to master. Me, personally, I found I progressed much faster when I finally jumped in with both feet and made up my mind to trust my system instead of having a "let's see what happens" attitude. IF you can find a good teacher, you may discover that sometimes the system that takes longer gives greater results in the end.

I know nothing about Park. I do believe in drilling six days & sparring one. My two cents.

hi Li,

::Sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you, hope that whatever you learned in that time you will be able to use it in the future. ::
"didn't work out".. hmm well I guess that's
one way to put it. And I do use what I learned..
I use it as yoga

::Master Park System teaches you very good fundamental skills that you can use with any art.
These skills are not easy to come and they require a lot of patience and perseverance. ::
This is true. But at the same time it is
something of a crapshoot for the beginner
who wants to learn to fight. Good yoga, good
conditioning.. but not practical for the
street.
::Master Park is able to figth with his art because he put the time and effort behind it, as you know. ::
Er.. with all due respect MISTER Park (master
schmaster) is able to fight with his art, and
presumably could fight without it as well, given
his.. er.. shall we say "thuggish" background?
He was a boxer, a skilled martial artist, and
was trained by a very very scary man (who would
likely be considered abusive by western standards,
not that I'm drawing ANY judgements about Lu lol).
Also he was constantly getting physical
encouragement from Lu and the other students yes?
So no.. I don't think Park's program will
eccessarily lead to the same skills he has.

::In my experience it will be hard to be able to get the necesary reflexes,sensitivity and power to figth using his Pa Kua after training just 3 year, if fighting is what you want there are other arts that train you in a much shorter time, but not this Pa Kua. ::
Quite so. I would venture to say that it
would take much longer unless the training
method switchs over to sparring at some unknown
point in the progression. Which begs the question,
why not go there from the beginning? Frankly when
you pay for the best there is, duly advertised,
and you don't learn to fight well in half a
decade (or nigh unto it).. well it's time to
exercise a perogative of capitalism and caveat
emptor.

::I agree with you sparring is fundamental when you want to train how to fight, that is what i was taught at Park's school, however to fight with skills using IMA is not that easy and a rare treat to see someone that is able to use it like Master Park does.::
With all due respect (and I do not wish to
insult you) this line has worn VERY thin over
the years. I am so very tired of the "our skills
are too dangerous to demonstrate". Why do senior
students discourage the juniors from asking for
demonstrations of the shock power? Why the
lack of realistic sparring? Why the constant
exercises without ever "feeling" what this
stuff is supposed to be like on the receiving
end?
::Sparring without skills is only good to
train bravery.::
Sparring develops the skills. Sparring shows
you how much and in what ways you suck. Pain
is truth, it is a teacher. just MHO
::In today's MA is sad to go to a tournament and see all the different schools fight the same way, they all look the same like a street fight. ::
Er. yes. That's so true. It's hard to tell
my Arnis from my friend's Muay Thai. Still there
are differences in our flow. In the flavour.
Unfortunately I also know what my bagua looks
like when I try to fight with it. It looks
like a fat white guy sprawled on the mat holding
his head lol.
::Why is that?,Why don't they use the technics
they trained for?. Only boxers and wrestlers show that. ::
AH! Because only boxers and wrestlers use simple
techniques and train freefighting with them?
Could that be it? I REALLY think this is it...


::You know that not everybody has the same motivation and goals to study MA,not everybody is into just fighting or just health and in Master Park case in some schools/groups they do more figthing than in others, it all depends on who the people are and their level of progress. :::
Which group are the fighters?

:::Don't know where you trained at but in my
school we are always researching applications
and sparring,actually Sifu gets upset with us because we don't use protection gear. :::
Cooperative applications are like solo drills.
One small stage. When is the last time you saw
anyone in a class told to practice Park's
elbow deflection drills against an opponents
piercing palm without pads? Just a simple
example of why I spend my money elsewhere
in the bizaar these days.
And in terms of protection gear.. for guys
anyway, anything beyond goggles, maybe a cup,
and decent mats on the floor is probably
counterproductive to my purposes.

:::Anyway is all good,We all belong to the
same MA family. Good luck in your training. :::

Good luck with yours as well, I hope you get
what you need from your training, and so do
your classmates.

cheers,

Nonillusions, 2 points: 1)sparring does NOT "develop" skill, it is one of many drills that teaches you to apply them, and 2)a thuggish background? If an instructor doesn't have real-world experience, he isn't a good instructor. Of course, as you point out, if he isn't willing to impart that real-world experience, he is equally as useless.

Just because an instructor did not grow up street fighting testing his skills doesn't make him an inferior instructor. The fact is that most do not have this opportunity, even if they wanted to. Having real life scary stuff experience is a plus, without a doubt but it is only one factor.
NHB and gym stuff don't count, right?
So, were back to what you need to be a good instructor.

Sorry, perhaps I came on too strong, yes NHB and gym stuff count and we can only do what we can. I just wanted to stress that having a "thuggish" sifu isn't just a plus, it is a TREMENDOUS plus.

"...sparring does NOT "develop" skill, it is one of many drills that teaches you to apply them..."

Sparring not only develops skills, it develops them faster than almost any other type of training. Some of the most dangerous fighters alive have never spent one minute on "developing basics," or repetitive "forms" practice, they are very good at fighting solely because they have been in a lot of fights. Believe me, they have practical "skills."

Rote repetition of movements in the air, or even with a cooperative partner are necessary for beginners, or when learning new skills but do absolutely nothing once the specific movements are in the muscle memory. It does not take a zillion repetitions to learn a motor skill (or we would be middle aged before we could ride a bicycle).

Once a concept, movement or technique has been introduced and understood (with a minumum amount of repetition), the student will gain absolutely nothing (excepting exercise) by constant repetition without spontaneous practice against "live" resistance.

That does it. I'm losing the training wheels tomorrow!

Good point, Tim, and that's why I tell new, younger prospective students to go take wrestling, boxing or a good style of juijitsu if they want to develop self-defense skills relatively quickly.

I also tell them, only partly tongue-in-cheek, that the best way to learn how to fight is to go and get into them every weekend with a variety of opponents (they have the weekdays to recover/heal). If they are still doing this after a year, they'll be able to beat the crap out of most opponents including the average martial arts expert.

But there is more to the traditional internal arts than combative competence and that's why they remain suitable for those with patience who want "self-cultivation" as well as "self-defence".