Ok...not to beat a dead horse....but can anyone finds any objective, 3rd party information on the (in)famous Li Clan of Sichuan? It seems that there should be plenty of info since they all lived to be 90 or more!!!!

http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/linchart.htm

Has anyone here gone through Park Bok
ba gua school?
Edit by SysOp - Moved to this subtopic and added query

Hi all,
I was wondering why there seemed to be so much hostility to Erle - yet most of it very vague mud slinging. I've read a comment that he appeared to be making the linear form up as he went. In fairness it's a form that many other people teach. Did they all make it up - or could it be that the form existed but the contributors just were not aware of it? Is it fair to blame Erle for teaching something we are ignorant of?

I've heard someone say that what Erle teaches about interanl energy is wrong. There is no detail as to what exactly. It is easy to criticise but in the absence of detail the criticsm is pointless as readers cannot evaluate who is right.

Has anyone who criticised Erle actually trained with him and pushed hands? If so, perhaps exact details can be given so this can be verified.

Also, someone said that shaking legs and pain is contrary to what they were taught about chi kung. Have they actually done any? If so surely they can go from class experience and not what they are taught. The fact is that I have not trained with Erle. I have trained with many leading internal martial artists and they say that legs will shake and it will hurt to start with. That was my experience. I'm looking for example at the book on front of me by Lam Kam Chuen and also Professor Yu Yong Nian who discuss how the feelings of "numbness, aching, shaking" progress over weeks. I've never met anybody who didn't ache to start with.

So, in short let's be fair. It's easy to make vague unsubstantiated attacks. It is easy for me to say "My Master is bigger than your Master" - but what does this achieve? All it achieves is divide. Are martial arts really abouting slating people off from behind the cover of a pseudonym? If so, is it really such a noble pastime?

Personally, I would like detail so we can learn from the forum. If people can express why they have doubts about Ere's teaching in precise ways that is helpful - that way I can learn and see wherein the truth lay.

I just think this is fair - it is people's reputations we defame - so let's at least explain exactly why.

WOW I love those pakua.org guys!!!

Their movements are even more wooden than mine!!!

And I love the way they combine Japanese and Chinese systems to display the fact that they know nothing, and aren't afraid to just 'put it out there' that they know nothing.

WOW... I'm just amazed

John PainteD sure looks phony

The above sure does provide a good belly laugh for all.

I haven't had such a good chuckle since viewing-on another site- a picture of a certain Taoist wearing a Superman outfit.

On the other hand I really do not understand the big deal being made.

After all,every Painter FABRICATES a bad portrait now and then.

TIM: DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT JOHN PAINTER?

HAVING BEEN A STUDENT AT THE SCHOOL FOR ALMOST 2 YEARS NOW, I'D BE HAPPY TO PAY FOR A PRIVATE LESSON FOR TIM WITH DR. PAINTER - THEN TIM CAN SET YOU STRAIT ABOUT DR. PAINTER'S BAU GAU.

NO OFFENSE TO TIM, BUT I DOUBT ANYONE WOULD LISTEN TO ME.

HAVING BEEN A STUDENT AT THE SCHOOL FOR ALMOST 2 YEARS NOW, I'D BE HAPPY TO PAY FOR A PRIVATE LESSON FOR TIM WITH DR. PAINTER - THEN TIM CAN SET YOU STRAIT ABOUT DR. PAINTER'S BAU GAU.

NO OFFENSE TO TIM, BUT I DOUBT ANYONE WOULD LISTEN TO ME.

rfboyle3@hotmail.com

Ron,

Having watched several of Bif Painter's videos and corresponded with him a few times on another discussion board- I can assure you a better use of your money would be to pay for Bif to have a private with Tim.

Out of curiosity- how much does Bif charge for a 1 hour private lesson these days?


Fire palm Yin, Thunder palm Yang
heaven palm lake palm- Hype! Hype! Hype!

Master Painter is probably the only genuine Ba Gua master in America. Shane you're off on this one. You need to go to the Gompa and study with the MAN!

Believe whatever makes you feel better.

Again- how much does Bif charge for a private?

"Master Painter is probably the only genuine Ba Gua master in America."

You have just freely insulted some of the most skilled IMA practitioner's in the States. "Master"? That's pretty funny, no IMA adept worth his salt has ever referred to himself as "master". But you need that sort of thing don't you grasshoppah!

"Shane you're off on this one. You need to go to the Gompa and study with the MAN!"

Shane trains with Mr. Cartmell and you're off on this one. Mr. Cartmell's acheivements and lineage range far beyond Adobe photoshop and self pontification. Why don't you check Mr, Cartmell out? Swing in and see what he has to offer before asserting he take "a private" with Biff?

I am sure Mr. Cartmell would let you wear your Beret and S.W.A.T. uniforn=rm for the lesson as well.

You obviously don't like asperions cast on your teacher, why would you cast them on others? Fight fire with fire, you'll get burned.

Regards, Pete (not a Mastah)

Slagging Dr. Bif, which is a hobby I enjoy too; by the way, what is Dr. Bif this month? Let us see, over the past ten years he has been:
1. a Qing dynasty master complete with long robe and magic ball
2. A commando with an unnammed counter-counter-counter terrorism unit
3. a Texas Ranger


But putting aside the comics and turning to a more serious issue; I have often wondered how much of their own b.s. folks like Dr. Bif, Count Dante, and others (who will remain nameless, I wouldn't want to disturb their disciple's "chi flow in the Tao") actually believe?

It actually is an interesting psychological thing; after so many years of talking nonsense do these folks actually start to believe it? If you pryed their little heads open do they in their heart of hearts believe in "death touches", that they are "masters" who learned their art from a mysterious Taoist who learned it from another mysterious Taoist who lived to be 500 years old, or any of the other nonsense they express in the magazines.

Or on the other hand they may just be like carnival showmen who know the "act" is b.s. but pretend it is real to draw the suckers in and seperate them from their hard earned money.


The psychology of self-deception is interesting. Somebody working on their MBA should do their thesis on "Martial Arts, Money and Hype: The Economics of Modern Martial Arts". Or if your major is psychology you could write it on: "Bullshitting Yourself:Martial Arts and Deception or I am, I am, I am a Shaolin Monk."

I could send you a short list of people to interview for either topic.

take care,
Brian

Many years ago I read the works of Tuesday Lobsang Rampa, a Tibetean Lamist monk, then living in England. The first five or so books, he had me hook, line and sinker. Then he explained how, as he was soon to die, he had been allowed to exchanged bodies with a middle aged, married Englishman. I never bought or read anything of his after that.

Even someone who is so blantantly and boldly a fraud as Painter can actually help some people by exposing them to things and concepts even if Painter can't really do them himself and seems to gear his material towards ten year olds (such as the 'American Rangers' act).

Just as you see some people still using the same style of humor they used at eight, some people never wise up to this stuff, as it fills other needs of theirs. For them, the're getting what they need, or want, out of it at that time.

I think that many of the marial arts "hype-masters" do actually start to believe their own stories after having repeated then often enough to audiences that swallow the stories or have never seen better. It is easy to be a "big fish in a small pond" if the people we teach have never seen the ocean and sharks.

We had one young Chinese lady locally who taught women's self-defence classes in which she taught them to punch with their thumb inside the fingers as this made their hands "packed with qi". Human nature being what it is I would imagine that many of her students blamed their resultant injuries on not having done the punch well enough or not "having enough qi".

PT Barnum certainly understood a great deal about human nature ,,,

People who ar narcissistic and fabricate all the time do start to believe their own BS. It is a real sickness.

There are however top people in the field who use the designation master, so I wouldn't say that is necessarilt indicitive of anything.

When I was at TaiJi Legacy in Texas this summer someone told me that though Mr. Painter was local there was bad blood between he & the other participants so he never attended. I wonder what that was about?

I have read that in some parts of Asia it is said that to make big bucks easy, learn a little Tai Chi and go to America or Europe. That if you 'talk the talk' and have a good show, the yankees don't notice that the teacher can't actually do what he's talking about.

To refrase, until you've trained with John Painter, it would be unfair to pass judgement - thus my offer; further, is it proper character to make the accusations and remarks or use the name calling such as "Dr. Biff." As far as cost, make the phone call or send an email - you'll find it one of the most inexpensive schools in the country.

To bad, this looked like one of the better discussion boards. I wish you all good health and happiness.

Ron,

isn't his given name John Biff Painter?

Which Omega level are you up to?