Does anybody have documentation on Luo De Xiu fighting ability that can be verified? I hope this is not taken as disrespect. I have seen many charlatans in the martial arts field.

Can his fighting ability be verified? Doesn't the fact that Tim is one of his students say something? Ask him to spar w/you. I'm sure he'd oblige.

I don't know Tim. I was able to verify the tournaments that he said he was in on his website. Was Luo known as just a teacher or as a verified fighter of some repute?

I really don't know what to tell you. All I can say is go to one of his seminars. I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Does anyone else feel like helping me out?

I don't want to drop any names, yet, but a friend of mine went through the same thing. He spent upwards of $5,000.00 working out w/people that said they knew what they were doing. Turns out they were just taking his money. Then he met Tim and Lo about six years ago. He hasn't studied under anyone else since. These guys are for real. If you don't want to spend too much money on a seminar, then I suggest you buy one of Tim's books. He can teach as well as fight. Email me and we can talk. Hope you find what you're looking for.

Abdullah;
Thanks for reconsidering my question and your help. You seemed a little defensive and hostile at first. I understand this because you are probably a student of Tim's. Just look at example John P. Painter Ph.D. N.D. He is featured enough times in magazines like Inside Kung-fu etc. that don't check backgrounds or sell products of the people they feature and people assume he is a expert. If you do any kind of background check you will find that he is a fraud. I'm sure Tim knows this if you ask. This is why I like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It is hard to fake your credentials. I also understand that there are people that are great fighters but horrible teachers. Like wise people that are technically great but don't have a fighter's spirit. It's all a tough call. I guess my whole point is try to weed out the blatant charlatans that seem to be more congregated in the internal Chinese Arts that I'm most interested in.

I understand if Tim doesn't want to get caught up in this conversation. I still would like to know the background of Luo from him. He probably feels a little insulted by now.

Good post. Actually, I was defensive at first. I post on another forum and some people like to start fights in very subtle ways. What can I say, we're an intelligent group. You simply made me more suspicious by posting as Anonymous. While it's your right, I feel that a person should post w/some sort of reference in order to back up what he/she is saying. Make up a forum name and post w/that. After several good posts, most people will trust your opinion. Hell, they'll even back you up if the need arises.

By the way, I wasn't being sarcastic about sparring w/Lo. Every time Tim comes down here, I try to spar w/him (whether it be push hands or bjj). I like to see where I'm at and what I need to imrove on. In Lo's case, I want to see how far he can throw me:).

I'm one of Luo's students in Taipei and the situation isn't much better here in Taiwan. Believe it or not we also have charlatans in this area.
As for his fighting ability I can tell you that I chose Luo laoshi from all the people I could think of because of his power and his ability to actually USE bagua. His power is very apparent and we get to feel it in every class. Of course I could be anybody just saying anything. But the seminar suggestion is a good one. That's how I met Luo laoshi and I was so impressed that I moved to Taiwan to study with him. How's that for a recommendation?

###
Just look at example John P. Painter Ph.D. N.D. He is featured enough times in magazines like Inside Kung-fu etc. that don't check backgrounds or sell products of the people they feature and people assume he is a expert. If you do any kind of background check you will find that he is a fraud. I'm sure Tim knows this if you ask.
###

Why do you think, that Mr Painter is a fraud? What kind of background check have you done?

Regards

###
That's how I met Luo laoshi and I was so impressed that I moved to Taiwan to study with him. How's that for a recommendation?
###

That's a good recommendation! Did you move to Taiwan just for studying with Luo? Was it complicated to get a work permission and to find there a job?

Regards

Yes, I moved here just to study from Luo laoshi. I was at the point in my life where I wanted to get really serious about training and I decided that he was the teacher to do it with. I haven't been disappointed!! IMO training in Taiwan is more intense than in the states.

Anytime you make such a big move it's going to be difficult at first. Taiwan (as I'm sure Tim and others would tell you) takes some time to get used to. But jobs aren't hard to find and the visa situation is workable. It has been well worth the effort!

Luo was a full contact tournament champion in his late teens and early twenties. The trophies he won are still in his teacher's (Hong Yi Xiang's) school. Luo is also an open teacher, and above all, he's a gentleman.

Tim

Dear Dave

---IMO training in Taiwan is more intense than in the states. ---

Why do think that training is more intense in Taiwan than in the states? What is the difference? Do you train still in parks these days? Excuse me for all the questions, but I find it interesting that you moved just for training to Taiwan and accepting the difficulties of a total different culture.

--- But jobs aren't hard to find and the visa situation is workable. It has been well worth the effort! ---

Are you able to speak chinese?

Kind regards
Volker

Dave -
To add to Volker's question. Does Luo teach all the different styles he is adept in?
Thank you

I'll take these one at a time:

Tim, totally agree with you. Luo laoshi is very open and easy to talk to. A friend of mine studies with Liu Hsi Heng (didn't you as well?) and he asked Luo laoshi some taiji questions which Luo was more than happy to answer.

Yes, we train in the parks, well, the Chang Kai Shek memorial to be exact. I think training here is more intense for several reasons: 1. laoshi pushes us to always have proper structure in our movements 2. we practice mostly individually, only rarely do we practice as a group so you have to be motivated 3. there are other martial arts groups practicing around us most of the time (Adam Hsu teaches very close to us) 4. the instruction is mostly in Chinese although laoshi's english is pretty good.
Accepting the diffences in the culture is difficult sometimes but it's worth it. I'm also here to learn Chinese because I feel that knowledge of the language is necessary for my growth. If you could see all the books available in China you would understand!

And yes, laoshi teaches all the styles he knows but he teaches bagua first, then xingyi, then taiji. He prefers bagua.
If you have anymore questions let me know.

Dave

Dear Dave

by the way: what means laoshi?

--- 2. we practice mostly individually, only rarely do we practice as a group so you have to be motivated ---

Don't you have many partner drills? Don't you have a special time for classes?

---3. there are other martial arts groups practicing around us most of the time (Adam Hsu teaches very close to us) ---

Why does this makes the training more intense? Because there are allways some other skillfull people watching?

--- 4. the instruction is mostly in Chinese although laoshi's english is pretty good. ---

And how can you understand the advice? As you said that you all still learning chinese?

--- Accepting the diffences in the culture is difficult sometimes but it's worth it. ---

Yes, I can think it can open the mind.

I have also thought about going to a foreign country to study BaGua. But up to now it is not that serious, but nevertheless it is more than a mind game.

Kind regards
Volker

Just thought I would add my 2 cents worth: I have been training with Tim now for 6 years after originally meeting him and Luo 7 years ago. I have trained with various supposed teachers of the internal arts who have varying abilities; all of them however without exception did not exhibit the level of skill of Tim and Luo. If you have ever had a question in your mind as to how the Internal Arts really work just go to one of Tim's or Luo's seminars. Our group here (which includes the infamous Abdullah Oblongata) hosts Tim regularly here in Las Cruces NM area. If you are interested contact myself or the Abdullah-man.

I have a question. It is stated that John P. Painter is a fraud. I don't know a lot about other Ba Gua teachers yet, but I thought he was real. Well, he is at the very least well know. Is he really fake?

Hi Russell,

When you have a chance can you email me, please? We have to talk about something big that we're going to make Tim do in NM early next year.

thanks,
Joe "Macaco fino"

I have to second what Abdullah and Russell have said. After training in a few different fighting
systems over the years, I've still not seen a system as effective as what you will see from either Luo or Tim.
This includes my training in the military, which I was told was "for real". Some was, but it
wasn't the whole picture. Get to a seminar and see for yourselves.

Kevin Schwebel
Las Cruces, NM

Hey Russell, This is Geoff in Las Cruces, If you read this, please call & let me know about your practice schedule& location.

I think they are going to practice at Mesilla Rec. tomorrow, Monday, from 7pm-9pm.

Macacao,

What do you have in mind...Tim will ultimately have to say yay or nay to whatever your proposing..

Geoff,

We are meeting tonight at the University at 7. We'll be practicing Ba-Gua. We should also be able to use the mats in the downstairs section of the gym.

Russell,

I already talked to Tim about what I'm going to speak with you about. I believe that we can provide him with help that he'll need to start something that will eventually be huge in the martial arts arena. This is not anything disrespectful, on the contrary it's something that will benefit martial artists in general and will be a great thing in years to come.

thanks,
Macaco fino

We await with baited breath . . .

I hope some kind of fusion/synthesis does come together for you guys. Tim and his students are obviously committed to finding the "essence" of effective martial arts. Best wishes for whatever form this takes, Tim, Joe, Russell & Co.

In terms of getting your message out, you might want to check into online publishing if you haven't already. By the time you have a polished presentation/text/graphics together, online publishing may well be the way to go, radically reducing the role of the publisher and allowing you to more directly control content/distribution/profit. Even if you do the traditional book/video format, consider retaining the online/electronic rights to your work.

Tim, online publishing may offer you a venue for that Sun style taijiquan book you've been working on. Essentially, you offer people an overview of the book. They can then decide if they want to download it, either to their computer or one of those portable electronic readers. You retain control of content and distribution, and eliminate the portion of revenues that would typically go to the publisher, distributor and retailer.

Look forward to hearing more.

Tom,

Continue holding your breath . . . I'll let you know when you may inhale again.

much appreciated,
sumuddaguy

Tim,

I think it is great that you writing a conditioning book... could we talk you into writing a book on Hsing-I? It would blow those already in print out of the water!!

Hey summuddaguy:

Me fingers keep on typing even with baited breath. As for when and how I breathe, I'll decide that. But thanks for the offer.

Try your lame attempts at censorship elsewhere, son.

Hello,

A few of you guys might remember me. I wrote a while back...My 4 yr old son had a question about
whether a power ranger could beat a BAQUA MASTER, and i received a lot of feedback. Thanks.
The other question he had is, that if MASTER SPLINTER from the ninja turtles were alive today, who would win, LUO OR MASTER SPLINTER?? Personally i think master splinter would give Luo DE XIU a run for his money.
-NINJA MASTER

Finally an intelligent question. I'm sure Tom will answer first. Then finally somebody will follow-up with a good answer.

Tom, I have recently found a publisher for my translation of the Sun Tai Ji book, but thanks for your suggestion.
Russ, I'd like to do books on the Internal styles sometime in the future. One thing at a time.
Ninja Master, are you kidding me?! Luo would kill Master Splinter with the Golden Mouse Trap Palm.

As usual, Anonymous has the courage of his nameless convictions.

Tim, I'm glad you found a publisher for the Sun taiji book. I look forward to that, the internal conditioning book, and other stuff. Maybe even sponsoring a Seattle seminar.

Folks up here would have benefited from having Luo De Xiu. But even a high-profile baguazhang teacher with an active organization in the U.S. like Park Bok Nam is only drawing 10-20 people for his semi-annual visit. I'm not sure what it takes to make that kind of visit worthwhile for Mr. Luo, in the absence of one of his established students being here.

C'mon Tom . . . cheer up, it's just a discussion board. Sheesh.
I really agree with Tom--Pork Bok Nam has to be one of the greatest baguazhang masters in the world and he's only drawing small groups at his seminars. What's going on!?

hi Tom

have you ever taken part in a seminar with Park Bok Nam? It should be a great opportunity that he comes two times a year for a seminar in your city.

hi anonymous:

Yeah I've only heard good things about Mr. Park, said with great respect. It's more likely that I could connect with him on the East Coast during a business trip.

Park Bok Nam has been teaching long enough that he's got some senior students who are supposed to be good as well.

Does anyone knows something about the fighting qualities from Park Bok Nam and his senior students? I mean beside what I can read in his books. Have anyone sparred with a student from Park Bok Nam and has therefore first hand experience?

As far as I know from Dan Miller and other friends who studied with Park, they don't spar at all. Maybe the most advnced students do.

Hello Tim

have your friends all stopped training with Park Bok Nam? I am asking because you wrote *studied*, the past form. If that is the case, may I ask you why they stopped training with him? Do you think one can become a good fighter without sparring? I think/thought Park Bok Nam is still teaching his art as a fighting art and not just as a health system.

regards
Volker

Volker,

I studied with Sifu Park. He's a nice man and he wants his students to understand what he's trying to teach. I don't think it's fair to ask these questions to Tim. So, I'll answer some of them, because "I" have experienced both men's teaching methods. Let me be blunt and brief - I train (present tense) with Tim. That's not to state that I don't think well of Sifu Park, it's "my" personal preference.

If you don't spar, you won't be a good fighter. Period. It's like telling a professional tennis player that all he has to do is 'drill' his shots without ever experiencing the psychological pressure from the real match. It's just not the same. This is the reason why, in many inferior principle based fighting systems, they'd kick the sh$t out of most 'superior' principle based fighting systems. Most of these guys want to feel their chi, they don't want to feel the real pressure of sparring. Dealing with the pressure, over and over again makes you good at fighting. Now, there are ways to bring someone up to speed on feeling that pressure - that's the beauty of the Shen Wu system. Uncle Tim has layed it out for you. BUT, like anything, you have to work for it.

Good training,
Macaco fino

Hi Macaco fino

###
I don't think it's fair to ask these questions to Tim. So, I'll answer some of them, because "I" have experienced both men's teaching methods.
###

it was not my intention to be unfair or to put Tim in a corner. Sorry. Thanks for your answer.

Do you mean that most of Sifu Parks student want to feal their chi and not the pressure? I thought that they are more interested in applications etc. and that the chi feeling people are (more or less) with Bruce Kumar Frantzis.

regards

Volker,

Sifu Park has many good students.

My comment was a general statement geared to the internal martial arts world as a whole. Not with any individuals specifically.

In regards to fighting, The Shen Wu class offered by Tim will have you actually fighting in a relatively short time. This, unfortantely scares many of the participants in the internal martial arts world.

I thought it was pretty clear what I was trying to state in my previous post. If you want someone to b$tch about 'this guy or that guy' there are plenty of discussion boards out there that will gladly accomodate you. Personally, I believe it's a big waste of time and energy. It doesn't matter what this guy can do or can't do. It matters what you can do. Sure, I train with Tim but not because it's "Tim Cartmell - martial arts guru" but because I trust and understand his teaching method. Many people forget that the good martial artists are just regular guys that got there because they broke their balls and trained their ass off. Okay, it's not mystical and not a real good marketing sell, but it's the truth. It doesn't matter what lineage you come from, what does matter is can you pull off what was taught to you when it's crunch time. Or, if you don't really care about that, are you enjoying what you are doing. But these questions can only be asked of yourself.

good training,
Macaco fino

So who'd win if they got in a fight, Park or Luo?

Macaco fino,

you are right it depends only on me wether I get some martials abilities or not. On my commitment to train. My question was not meant that I wanted to know wheter Park Bok Nam ist a good fighter or not. But I think if one produces good fighters it says at least somenthing about his meantality and his abilities as a trainer. That was the reason why I asked about the abilites of Sifu Parks students and not about his own abilities. Sure, even than I have to do the work to become a good martial artist, but I think than I have a roadmap. I can see that if I train with eg Sifu Park and I know that he produces good martial artist, than I know all I have to do is to train hard and than the skill comes naturally.

regards

Yes, it is certainly possible for one to be a good trainer without being a good fighter.

Look at Rocky. Does anyone seriously think Burgess Meredith was ever a good fighter- hell no! He was a dainty old actor with a gruff voice- who couldn't beat his way out of a Styrofoam cup... but he took that Rocky kid into the ring, Made him chase chickens around to build up his speed and then eat hundreds of raw eggs. Made him punch huge frozen sides off beef till his punches made that 'swoosh' sound when he swings.

Rocky went on to win the title over and over and over, even beating a giant Russian one time. Hollywood made several movies about him. And he went on to star in other movies. All because of good solid training from a guy who probably never had a real fight in his life- but had the know-how to train a poor kid with a speech problem.

I have to go. I have a class to train.
Bob #2

Wow that's how I train. Does Burgess Meredith give seminars?

Exactly.

I think Tim looks just like 'Mick' on a good day.
Sounds like him too. Why, I remember at one tournament, I couldn't go on. I said to Uncle Tim, "I can't go on Tim, I got nuthin." Uncle Tim looked at me and yelled, "kid, your a tank - an Eye talion tank. Now get in there and fight. So, I did.

I lost.

You know how those Eye talion tanks work...

good training,
Macaco fino

Luo's got fighting ability.

Yep.

All those on the site that missed Luo's seminar missed out. It was great to see his perspective on the arts. Also, stay tuned, the Las Cruces crowd is organizing a seminar for Tim in October.

I think the whole dang (a colloquial term) thing is very interesting. I have never met Luo or Tim But a very good friend of mine went to see them at one time, and came home bearing videos and books (well He ordered them a short time later.) They made a believer out of me without ever having met either of them.
I have been practicing Ba gua and BaJi tran with Grace Wu, in Wichita Kansas (unfortunately, yeeecchhh) for around ten years now. I love the arts and have been glad to see there is someone out there who does not think that Ba Gua is for waiting tables!!
Personally I would jump at the chance to train with either of them. In fact I have been debating about going to teach english in Taiwan (I will be graduating with a degree in English Lit. in about 1, to 1 and a half years.) Should I go that route I will be definently look for Luo Laoshi.
By the way I also speak A little Chinese, so any one whom might know any job contacts I should consider, Please "give me a holler" I believe the term is.
Respect always
DeadPool

DeadPool,

(Bagua for waiting tables- that's rich)

While teaching English in Taiwan would be
a rewarding experience--(I have several friends
who taught in Asia- each stayed on for
years beyond their original plan)-- I'd recommend first taking a short trip to California to study with Tim (he can help your Chinese and give you solid advise about overseas life).

You may come to realize a move to sunny, babe- filled Southern California would be just as valuable to your training as relocating yourself
to Taiwan. If not... you will still have gained much.

(I grew up in North Carolina and have
never regreted leaving... I moved here for the babes and rock stardom... found Tim by sheer luck)....(I"m still looking for that dang stardom)

Good luck,
Sum Guye

Hello All,

I was looking for some guidance from someone.
(maybe TOM could answer). I have started training my 4 yr old son in ninjitsu since he was 3 and thought maybe i should have started training him earlier. However my wife and i are planning to have another child here soon. Does anyone have any guidance on how early a new born should start training in the martial arts? I know Bruce Lee started training Brandon as soon as he could crawl, and it didnt harm him. I was thinking of getting my new born trained in Bagua while my 4 yr old keeps on studying ninjitsu. Eventually i plan to turn my livingroom into a sparring center where i can hold kumites between my two children, pitting the two different martial arts styles against each other. Hopefully my wife will approve.
-NINJA MASTER

I hope it happens. And then your children could be in the running for the Darwin award. It'll be the perfect symbol your level of evolution.

Ninja Master,

It does my heart good to see someone so eager to share martial knowledge with their children. I do have some suggestions for training tykes in the art of combat. Although, I'm interested in what Tim of Shen Wu will suggest.

1. Limit the time the 4 year old spends
with your wife. Women, for the most part,
instill weakness and vulnerability in male
children.
(if you're not planning on having more children
you should "lose" her shortly after the next
birth. One less mouth to feed; one less
training obstacle.)

2. It sounds like you've already begun teaching
your 4 year old the basics... move on to
striking. I've found that young boys do well
practicing crashing palm, drilling strikes and
kicking techniques on older, infirm dogs.
Visit local animal shelters and 'adopt' older
slow dogs(preferably toothless- this can be
done with normal pliers). These dogs
are in line for death or painful
scientific research labs anyway- so it's
not as if you are doing anything unethical.
Within a year your son may be developed enough
to pull a dogs heart out and show it to him
before he dies! When 'show and tell' time
comes he'll get a strong reputation around
school for being someone NOT to pick on.

3. Training an unborn child. You are very
fortunate that you're blessed with a four
year old- since his arms are slender (barring
any glandular disorders) he could easily
begin training his younger, unborn brother
with push-hands drills, various Chi-Na
leverages and even help the embryo develop
his rolling skills. Of course, You'll have
to instruct the 4-yr old to be very careful
not to puncture the unborn childs eyes and/or
skull as that would be counter productive.
(shelters are packed with pregnant dogs which
could serve as dandy training subjects.)

These forms of training will bring your family closer together and will certainly gear your sons towards being powerful fighters.

My younger brother has won several submission tournaments and no one EVER picked on either of us in school. I would have thanked my father and told him how much I loved him... but I knew he would have misconstrued that as having wasted all that training.

Good luck my friend.

Mr. Numero Dos,

You are a very sick man. Please seek medical treatment right away. I suspect that you are already under some psychiatric treatment. Maybe the doctors should limit or even revoke your priveleges on the computer. It seems to just highten your delusions.

Then again you are entertaining in a sick and nutty kind of way.

Bobby,

I asked my doctor about medical treatment as you suggested and he reminded me that I'm actually not a real person. It turns out I'm a figment of someone's imagination and I post things just to get giggles from folks that can get the joke. I wanted to argue with him, but hey, he's the doctor.

I do not actually condone any form of animal cruelty or in utero martial arts training. Nor did I ever gnaw through my ankles to escape from an overturned car. I wasn't even featured on "That's Incredible"; which came as a real shock to me because I was so proud of my 15 minutes of fame.

Good luck in your training.. and remember- everything is one big joke if you look at it the correct way. Hell, you may not even exist if you look at it the correct way. I recommend checking with your doctor.

Ninja Master,

You might want to start with circle crawling. You gotta crawl before you can walk.

Bob Too,

Do you think it's better to start with dogs and work your way up to exploding chickens from a distance or just jump right into a 6'x6' cage with fighting roosters from the get go?

Basura

Basura Blanco,

I'd heard exploding chickens was a myth... if you know of anyone who can do this.. I'd love to learn it.

Bob2,

No myth at all! Here's how I do it. Take one healthy, mid-sized chicken. Breed is not important here. Place into microwave oven. You must turn on the oven so the interior light comes on in order to see the chicken explode. Stand back at a distance of 3 paces & throw your chi at the chicken. Within a matter of minutes the chicken will explode. When you really get the hang of it you can even throw your chi from another room or even outside. Be sure to keep proper posture and stay relaxed. Also, be sure to have tortillas & salsa ready.

Basura Blanco

To all,

For whatever it is worth,Kumar Frantzis states that Luo,s Ba Gua is very good.If you know Kumar he gives out compliments very begrudgingly.And make no mistake Kumars Ba Gua is in many ways is the best out there.He is for reasons not comprehended by myself not very open in many cases about teaching.

When Kumar is in shape and about 50 to 75 lbs lighter than he is now he is a devestating fighter.Rumors and stories that you have heard of Kumars defeat by people like Vince Black or Jerry Alan Johnson are true and not true.

In Johnsons caes it is simply ludicrous.In Vince Blacks case there is some merit to the story with this qualification.Kumar was in a state of rehabilatation from a serious neck injury when they sparred.Vince is a very good martial artist and fighter,but again he is and never was in Kumars class as a fighter or teacher.

It sounds as if I am supporter or ally of Kumar you are sadly mistaken.The man can be one of the biggest horse asses on the planet.But real fighters or those that know what real confrontation is do not make the mistake of dismissing this fat out of shape sometimes jerk as a bad fighter.Nothing could be further from the truth.As a matter of fact one of the reasons Kumar strays from the fighting crowd and the teaching of fighting in any real depth is one there is no money in it,the bliss ninnys are keeping him fat and content.Two,in his younger days he hurt a lot of people and hurt them bad.He could be vicious and cruel.Ask anybody from NYC.He is is repaying past Karma.

This fat, sometimes jerk and often profound martial artist,healer when in fighting shape,had gung fu emanating from the very depths of his nether regions.Unfortunately for him he has insulted so many that rumors began spreading,rumors like JAJ beating Kumar.Not in a million years.And many of the insulted have been martial artists with very high reputations.So in his quest to elevate himself he ahs pissed all over his reputation.But when I hear marginal martial artists speaking of how they did this or that to Kumar it is sickening.Because my friends when in shape and healthy he was devastating.

So why doesn't he get in shape and fight in a big name no holds barred tournament to expound the merits of his bagua, tai chi. This way people from all over the world would come seeking him out and he could sell more books and 'help' people with his internal chi gung exercises. He could truly helping people 'see the light' and spread the overall merits of the ancient systems.

Name recognition - whether it's selling chi or beating someone's head in - in a big name tournament will get you revenue. It's all about money. If it was about cultivating yourself, you wouldn't be talking shit - you wouldn't care.

But, I guess it's just physically easier to eat hoho's, be fat and talk about what a bad ass you really are as you rub your chi.

Tell the fatboy to start doing some exercise and start talking with his fighting skills.

By the way, Vince Black would rip him a new one on his best day.

Hey, maybe YOU could teach me one hsing yi element every year with no application to string me along too.

idiot

Even though that last 'anonymous' post was signed "Idiot" ....it sounds like a classic Tom post and Tom replies to himself post.

I could be wrong, but if I'm not; it's good to have you back.

Anonymous -
I thought Luo was a Hsing-Yi fighter in tournaments. Was Kumar's opinion of Luo as a teacher or as a fighter? I always heard Luo was a better Hsing-Yi fighter and relied on his size as a Ba-gua fighter.

Dear Idiot,

You sound as if you have had some expierence with Kumar.You are wrong about one element per year.It was about one every 3 months,with multiple aplications.But the overall jist of your statement is well taken.

Vince is good,but his previous kenpo training permeates his other practice,which is not in and of itself bad.

In no way is Vince on Kumars level in the art of Ba Gua IMO.Kumar has an amazing dragon and water body,the Kai and He of his movements are very high level, seamless and powerful.Vince does not possess this high degree of opposite undulations seeking a common goal skill to the same level as Kumar,very few do however.

And yes he is an authentic lineage holder in the art.Liu Hung Chieh, Kumars teacher was a legitmate disciple of Ma Shr Ching.He was in the main Pa Qua school in Beijing in the early part of the 20th century.Idiot,do you have any idea what martial arts in China were like at that time?

Kumars Pa Qua is not for the forms collectors or the "paint by numerologists".Comments on his personality quirks and sometimes questionable teaching practices are valid.What is not valid is the questioning of his authenticity.It is for real.

To do that one will have left the realm of the idiot and entered the world of the embicile.


Kumar is over 50 yrs old why would he want to go do full contact tournaments at his age?Name one martial artist in the world who is competing in these no holds barred full contact matches past the age of fifty?

El Chamuco,

I was specific in asking Kumar about his Pa Qua ability.He stated it was very very good.I really do not have the specific knowledege to comment on
your Hsing I statement, as I have never met Luo.

I'm sorry I was not as articulate on my question and I know you haven't the answer. I was just told that Luo wasn't the agile tactician that a great Ba-Gua person was capable of. He couldn't give up his less sensitive Hsing-Yi and develop some of the body listening (push-hands, etc.) techniques that Ba-Gua is known for. He therefore relies on a more basic and powerful version that a larger person could use but isn't in the spirit of classic Ba-Gua.

El Chamuco,
Luo has extremely subtle and fluid bagua that he can actually USE in fighting. As for being an "agile tactician" I would have to say that Luo is a fairly big guy and has lots of power. He doesn't need to move his body much in order to establish a superior angle on the opponent. But this allows us to stay close. To some, this lack of large movement appears as a lack of agility but in fact it's actually superior strategy regardless of size.

As for not giving up xingyi, if you've researched the Gao style you'll know that the huo tians (post heaven bagua) are linear and IMO resemble xingyi to a great degree. From what I can tell, xingyi plays an important part in our training so "giving it up" wouldn't be a good idea.

I would also like to say that push hands is a training exercise and THAT'S IT. It's not meant to be the focus of training and Luo doesn't teach it like that. Besides, bagua is known for roushou practice which is much more involved than commonly seen push hands. However, because it's more involved, roushou may not appear to be as sensitive to an outsider.

As for Luo not doing "classic" bagua, I'm not sure what this statement means. After all, bagua is a principle based art that should be adapted to each individual's body type and temperament. As long as you follow the principles it's "classic" bagua, right?

Yep, Dave C's on the right track there -- simply read Tim's intro. to Ba Gua (on THIS WEBSITE):

"Dong Hai Quan [The ORIGINATOR of BA GUA] only taught established masters of the martial arts; he accepted no beginners. The training was designed to allow his students (already masters of other martial arts in their own right) to modify their original arts in accordance with the principles of Ba Gua Zhang."

Yes, the stuff in brackets ([]) are my words, not Tim's; I added 'em to help those who don't readily recognize this name (such as myself -- I'm poor with names; and I'm extremely poor with Chinese names).
Note that ba gua principles were used to modify one's base art -- not to eradicate such. This was ba gua zhang: many students from other arts, thus many "flavors" of ba gua zhang. {)

El Chamuco,

I have not written on this board before, but I wanted to back up what Dave C. wrote. (Argh! I'm writing on a computer with a Chinese OS, so there are strange formatting marks showing up. Please ignore them if you see them...)

I am a student in Luo's class and am a small person. Luo Laoshi knows I can't power my way through the techniques against larger, stronger classmates. He is quite clear that none of us should be trying to do that and that powering through it isn't effective bagua. He teaches techniques and also teaches what one should do with the technique when faced with a stronger opponent who resists it. He also teaches us how to increase the sensitivity of our hands and improve our timing.

I can't agree that he "relies on" his size in his bagua. In his fighting, he doesn't waste his size and power (why would he give up this advantage?), but it is not a key to his bagua and he doesn't factor it into his approach to teaching bagua. He does, however, encourage us to do strength training exercises, such as tiengan. He stresses that bagua has both--power and sensitivity, softness and hardness--which is why he now prefers it to both xingyi and taichi, considering that it contains the strengths of both.

(Actually, I believe that even in his tournament fighting days, he didn't rely on size. If you look at old photos from those tournaments, he was a lanky, skinny kid.)

Also, it is useful to look at the bagua of his students. The most senior of his current crop of students is shorter than I am, and I'm a 5-foot-6 girl. This student has had many teachers and has studied martial arts his whole life, but he's stuck with Luo because Luo's bagua works for him. He doesn't mix it with other styles; he uses Luo's bagua. I think that's a good indication of its effectiveness regardless of body size or type. Dave C., back me up here; you're a strong ex-military guy with martial arts experience--would you mess with Lin Guo-jeng? He has to focus on mobility more than other students because of his shortness, but that's all included in bagua footwork. I completely agree with Dave and Mike's point that each student must approach bagua in a slightly different way depending on their strengths and background--and bagua can accommodate them all.

Anyway, Luo is a smart man who has dedicated his adult life to researching, understanding, practicing, and teaching bagua and is very good at it. There¡¦s my 2 cents for what they're worth.

Ron Van Clief entered the UFC and was over 50 years old -
There's others that fight also - Rickson Gracie is 42. Although, be it not 50, he's in shape. Any good external guy would rip fatass a new one. And yes, just because someone trains with an old chinese guy of legit lineage in china for a couple of months does not make him a good fighter. In fact, I could go to china tomorrow, give some old man some decent bucks and get a f#ckin' certificate. Just because someone has a lineage doesn't mean he'll be able to teach or fight.

how's that •••••••.

BTW, it's not tom this time, it's someone else who knows the score...

(here's a clue - it came from Fukien provence originally)

I agree with the idiot. If someone is going to talk about themselves and say how much of a badass they are, then regardless of their age, then they should fight. Otherwise, they can say, 'hey, when I was younger, I was a badass but there's no historical record of this.' Just like all the other bullshit martial art teachers do today to create their little myth. Oh yes, where did I learn my internal - from a wondering Taoist that nobody knows about in the streets of Westminster, CA, urrgg, I mean mountains of China, yah, China.

Basically, the end goal of martial arts practice (in my opinion) keeps on getting reinforced the more I read about these idiots. You see, the end goal of all martial activity is to use the martial arts as a vehicle to learn more about the self. All these guys have learned is they have fragile little egos and have to lie about their fighting exploits to compensate for a small, well, codpiece...Yes, they loss their ego along the way. Hah! We might as well talk about rubbing our chi and exploding our chickens.

signed,
idiot's cousin

Didn't Mae West say she never met a codpiece she didn't like

This a great thread. Does anyone out there know Judge Judy?

Medieval Codpiece or should I say idiot clone.I see Jim Rome type smack has made it,s way into the embiciles of the martial arts world vocabularies.At least try to be original.

There is a lot of envy and jealousy towards Kumar.He probably at one time told the idiots how bad their martial arts were.Instead of standing up at the moment,they do their knife in the back act when he is well out of sight.

By the way embicile, Kumar studied for three years in Beijing.Envious and jealous because you were not smart enough or good enough yourself to do this.Get your facts straight.

And speaking of getting your facts straight Liu Hung Chieh basically taught 2 people his entire lifetime,although the requests were many.

It is easy for you to talk disparingly of one who actually did meet a Toaist of the highest order.While Kumar was actually studying and learning from a master in Beijing for three years,you were probably in Long Beach perfecting your Van Smack plageristic non humor.

Fake Badasess,

In reading the posts above it becomes abundantly clear that many talk the talk,but few of you have walked the walk.

Like the former special forces types who never were.

I wished someone who new the real value of martial arts would have been there to teach my father about Toaism or how to reconcile his anger and violence.

I have actually lived with violence and thru fighting and folks,it aint pretty.And some of us when we fight carry this over into other areas of our lives,and we destroy all around us.So those that talk of fighting on web sites and external stylists doing this or that,I believe your full of it,that you have never had a proper ass kicking,and probably never inflicted serious harm on anyone.Or been tortured by their own violence and anger.Or felt the guilt because deep down you enjoy violence.It is not all it is cracked up to be.

My old man was a real bad ass.3 time state wrestling champion.National Golden Gloves champion.Fought Ernie Terrell in Chicago.Terrell went on to fight a then Cassius Clay for the title.The old man was also a sparring partner for Sonny Liston.

Yes he was a real bad ass.The kind of guy who when walking with my mom in a department store knocked some guy threw a glass window because he thought this dude was looking at my mom.

The kind of guy who died in prison on Christmas day.In prison because he assulted somebody in a traffic altercation,lacerating this somebody,s kidney in the process.Yeah he was real tough.Could have kicked a lot of internal artists asses.My mom told me he was like a car without brakes,and not afraid of any conflict,that in fact sought it out.

But maybe if someone like a Kumar or whoever could have taught him how to redirect his violence,my kids would have a Grandfather.You know one of those wimpy internal types that you supposed bad asses like to stereotype and generalize about.Maybe I would not have lived with so much shame,or lied about my father so that people would not have known the real story.Maybe I would have given full effort and maximized my potential in terms of my own martial art prowess,instead of not doing so,because after all why would I like to be like the old man,a man who did and could fight very well,but a violent and angry man who died alone in prison,never to lay eyes on his grandchildren.But he was a tough guy and a good fighter.

This is not a sob story or myself executing a catharsic paragraph or two.I respect the fighters who have the courage
,talent and guts to lay it on the line.But also even more respect those that can change and guide the souls of the truly dangerous and disturbed.

BTW Liu Hungchieh was a disciple of Cheng Youlung not Ma Gui. Ma taught Liu some of Dong's Neidan stuff. Kumar has always been HIGHLY complimentary of Luo Laoshi. I would advise not to knock on his door with bad intent. It could prove unpleasant.

Buddy

To Anonymous of 2:23pm 6Oct,
Yes, there are frauds (perhaps in every well-known style); and there are those who can fight well -- in every style that I've had experience with so far; even "no style" street fighters (who, face it, have a "style" of their own if they're consistent).
It seems that your dad was a world-class fighter (as professional boxers don't generally spar with non-talented individuals). I'm sorry to read the bad news -- hopefully though the reading of it may help someone out there in cyber-land that suffers from a short fuse. Nevertheless, please understand that there are some very capable "internal" & "external" martial artists -- some with great attitudes, some without.
I've met both Tim & (Mr.) Luo -- "internal" martial artists; and in my opinion they're very capable practitioners of Xing-Yi & Ba-Gua. They both have decent attitudes (in non-combative & training environments). When I make a mistake with either of these men, they immediately capitalize on it. Mr. Luo nearly gave me whiplash (using the -- slick -- concept of "give them more" -- & I'm bigger (taller & heavier) than him. Tim has done the same or similar to me on several occassions -- & I'm also bigger (both inches taller & about 50lbs. heavier) than Tim. They both used technique to essentially nullify my use of force (whether it was skillful or brute force -- I've tried both against Tim to no avail).
I've also been overpowered by some "external" stylists -- but they've all been stocky (& some even taller than me); plus all were more skilled than I to boot; & I've seen some small "external" stylists that I pretty much know would be bad news for me if I'd ever end up on their wrong side. Again my point is that not all "internalists" are whimpy, nor all "externalists" strong: some are capable, some aren't.
Now back to your dad. The US Marine Corps created several batalions of "Raiders" (such as "Edson's Raiders" during WWII. They trained these men to be killers extraordinary -- and they were. Unfortunately these men were released upon society once these units were disbanned -- WITHOUT APPROPRIATE DEBRIEFING. Almost all of them ended up behind bars for killing people (some killed out of reflex before they realized the situation didn't call for it). These were well-intentioned, normally nice people turned "psycho" killers -- all for lack of being eased back into civilian life. Imagine your dad having to spar with boxers who could kill him if he's not careful under rules that award aggressive moves; then immagine it's a few hours or weeks later -- he may still be in a somewhat permanent state of aggressiveness. So I agree, he probably could have used some sort of guidance to redirect or nullify his angst. After US Congress ruled never to allow the formation of US Marine Raider battalions ever again, the military started debriefing their special forces types.
I've met several special forces types (from USA, USMC, USN, USAF, plus foreign) -- all had seen action; all were tough; some of the action was hand-to-hand; some were wounded; all were survivors; they all saw other special forces comrades die in combat. Being special forces doesn't make one invincible; but chances are (at least if they're the old-school I knew of) they're not whimps!

To Medieval Codpiece,
There once lived an extremely capable, Shaolin-trained man of Vietnamese origin in WESTMINSTER, CALIFORNIA -- of all places: Master Jack Ngyuen (spelling?). He was a combat veteran of the "Fighting Water Buffalos" (sp?) -- one of the few kick-butt South-Vietnamese military units. He was their hand-to-hand combat instructor (& he claims that he wasn't even the best of his fellow Shaolin students -- who combined couldn't defeat their master). YOU JUST NEVER KNOW WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO MEET CAPABLE FIGHTERS. Oh, Master Jack probably weighs all of 90lbs -- & he once knocked out Phil Hall (an "externalist-internalist" who was close to 6'3" (or 4) & well over 200lbs (& Phil could move his weight at least as an "externalist;" he seemed a bit lacking as an "internalist". Go figure, eh?

To Any & All,
As the likes of Beth S., Dave C., & Tim have been writing: a smaller individual can possibly defeat a larger person's brute-force ability by using a skillful force. As a general observation, such smaller individuals don't stand much chance if they use unskilled brute force against larger, stronger opponents; so isn't it "smart" for them to learn the use of skillful force (regardless of the type of art)? And if it works for the smaller & weaker, would it not also work for the larger & stronger (if they were willing to PUT FORTH THE EFFORT)?
Happy training y'all. {)

About Kumar.

I believe he was a very good fighter at one time.The question about his phsyical condition is valid and of concern.

What does this say about your art if you disrespect your own body?

To use examples of Wang Shu Chin or Hung as reasons or excuses to carry an extra fifty or a hundred pounds is a travesty and it sends the wrong message.In seeing Kumar on The Phil Donahue show I was embarrassed for him.His physical condition was deplorable.To state that internal stylists are and never have been concerned about the physical body is an absoulute joke.

It makes about as much sense as training a beginner of fighting in the standing postures of Taki Ken.No sense at all,your setting the student up for failure.

As stated above I believe he is more than capable of defending himself,and at one time or when is shape he was downright nasty.

As far as him fighting and proving himself after the age of fifty,Kumar will tell you he already has done his fair share of competetions.And if not verifiable well that is in the eye of the believer.I have on very good source however that he did break a competetiors back in a closed competetion.

Understand this also.Kumar does workshops all over the world.At some of his retreats he gets 35 students at a pop.$1000 per student.My math says $35,000 for the one retreat.Not a lot of incentive to go out and put ones self in harms way.He is supporting a family and from the looks of it,must be doing it very well.

What does this prove?I do not know or frankly care that much.I will not spend that kind of dough to support a worhshop martial artist.But thats just me.

Beth S.
You're right. I wouldn't mess with "xiao Luo" even on my best day. He is an example of what a smaller person can learn to do with Luo's bagua. And he's not the only example we could name...

Anonymous
Everyone should be skeptical of any and all claims about fighting ability. The web certainly is filled with many fakes. And fighting ability itself is not (IMO) the final goal. BUT it is an important stage that must be passed through. If you truly want to learn to deal with conflict (both inside of you and outside) then you must learn how to fight. This is what the new agers just don't get.

Yesterday a friend and I were talking about all the juvenile shit-talking that goes on in many martial arts forums. (I don't mean just this one--unlike others, this one often has intelligent writing.) "Kumar is more advanced than Vince Black. Vince Black could rip Kumar a new one (nice imagery). Kumar could rip Jerry Alan Johnson a new one. Luo De Xiu could rip Master Splinter a new one." Et cetera, ad nauseum. He made a suggestion that cracked me up:

Instead of speculating on duels that will never happen, go visit the two people in question. Ask each of them to beat you. Then decide which one hurt you more.

Any takers?

Man, I have seen Kumar, and I wouldn't want to be in the vacinity when he ripped one!

Dave C,

I have heard this stated many times,that one needs to fight to transcend fighting ect,blah,blah blah.

What kind of fighting are you refering to.Full Contact no holds barred or simply prearranged studio sparring or some of these tournaments between schools of the same system,which are by and large a joke.

Actually, maybe it depends on where you're at. For most of the people on this board, studio sparring is probably fun and easy. (Anonymous used the word "simply" before studio sparring.) But for me, if it's not partly or wholly choreographed (and I assume he/she didn't intend "prearranged" to mean choreographed), it is nerve-wracking.

I avoid confrontation whenever possible because that's how I was raised. If I have to confront anyone in any aspect of life, I either say something really stupid or just give in because my brain shuts down in panic. So classtime sparring is a way for me to practice keeping my head and using learned skills (i.e., seeing the opponent clearly, interpreting the situation and choosing an appropriate technique instantly) in a temporary confrontational situation without having real-life consequences. It's like medicine for me--I don't enjoy it, but I take it because I think it will help me.

For you guys, then, if you're interested in tournaments, they would probably fulfill the next level of the same purpose. Can you keep yourself together and competent when facing an unfriendly opponent? It's still not *real* real-life, but it's closer. (Regarding which specific kind of tournament is more useful, I'll leave that question to others who actually have fought in them. BTW, why are tournaments between schools of the same system a joke? Asking honestly--I've not seen one.)

After that, there's no need to go looking for trouble, IMO. If trouble comes to you, and you truly need to defend yourself or others, then you're already better prepared. If you pick a fight, then you're a bully and that's your own problem and you should learn how to meditate.

When you start meditating, all your packed-down emotions start bubbling up into your mind, and they're usually pretty negative (or else they probably wouldn't be packed-down). Can you see them clearly, keep your cool against this new opponent, figure out what to do when they get in your face? Maybe that's the next level, which the previous Anonymous had wished his dad had attained, having already gained great fighting ability.

I don't mean to sound like a "new ager" with the last part. I'm not one. But I'm not joking about it either.

FOR THE RECORD:
Anonymous of 3:28am, Sunday 8Oct writes:

""...Luo De Xiu could rip Master Splinter a new one." Et cetera, ad nauseum. He made a suggestion that cracked me up:

Instead of speculating on duels that will never happen, go visit the two people in question. Ask each of them to beat you. Then decide which one hurt you more."

Er, guys & gals, "Master Splinter" is a comic/cartoon (rat-like) character from the comic-book called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles." I too "cracked up" when I originally read that one! But how does one "visit" a comic-book character & ask him to "beat you?" Wouldn't attempting such be a sign of insanity?
And for that matter, wouldn't visiting Luo De Xiu -- who is both a real person & a highly trained martial artist -- & asking him to "beat you" be either insanity or a great act of courage -- or both?
Dueling with Mr. Luo will hurt you more physically. Dueling with Master Splinter means you're already hurt -- mentally.
I'm just having fun here now; but at least it's REAL fun, eh? {)

Oops. In all my running off at the mouth I didn't really say what I started off wanting to say. Which was: If you learn the mental skills of fighting--such as clear observation and evaluation of a situation, quick reflexes, the ability to adjust quickly when the situation changes--these abilities are what can help you control or defuse a tense situation before it becomes truly confrontational. IMO, that's at least part of the point Dave made about learning to fight to get past fighting.