Does anyone have any experience with Li Tai Liang? I did a bit of research on him and it appears he is or was involved with San Shou, which is full of tight , muscle bound fighters, not that that is wrong, but I always got the impression that "good" or "true" Xing Yi doesn't produce fighters that look or fight like Muay Thai fighters. San Shou looks like Muay Thai with throws and no elbows. I have met internal masters like Chen Xiao Wang, and he is very soft, but very very explosive. I wouldn't want to bother him. Internal teachers I have personally trained with have always stressed not tensing up the body and staying relaxed. Perhaps he teaches the "outer" form to "outsiders" and maybe if you've been with him long enough he'll teach inner power.... I get a feeling this is the case. Any helpful advice is appreciated.

chinese martial arts make more money if they create theories that people need to learn. but when it comes down to real fighting, as you can see in the san shou and muay thai and ufc, all the talk about internal power and being relaxed goes out the window. fighting is very simple. train your reactions, endurance and pain tolerance. and fight. then you can learn to fight. the complex energy theories and techniques don't matter. It's all a big scam.

Wilhelm,

"San Shou, which is full of tight , muscle bound fighters"

Cung Lee is one of the best San Shou fighters in the world. He doesn't even look muscle bound. What is your definition of "muscle bound"?
Olypic 100m sprinters are muscular. Muscle bound? Yeah right. These are the most explosive athletes in the world.

I don't care how much skill in fighting you have. Unless you have conditioning, speed, and strength you will lose to someone who has it. I heard this in a magazine from I think Bill Wallace, "A fight only comes down to tactics and strategies if the two fighters are physically equal. 9 out of 10 fights don't even require the participants to demonstrate their tactics, skill and strategies because one fighter is physically stronger, or faster, or better conditioned than the other.

Most people I've heard say to work on skill and not to worry about strength, conditioning ect. are weak and can't really fight.

You can always get stronger. Strength is the easiest physical asset to increase. Most people increase their strength by 20-50% in a few weeks of weight lifting because it teaches the neuromusclar system to become more efficient and to use all of the muscle fibers a person has. Gains after this are much slower but you can always increase your strength through hard work.

Its best to maximize all your attributes. Strength, speed, conditioning, hit resistance, and skill. Neglecting one is leaving a weak link in your chain.

Listen to Mont on this one.

P.S. Cung Le is one bad dude... I stood next to him at a tournament and I got the chills.

Certain fighters do have an air about them. Unfortunately it is the air of FEAR, which I find especially prevelant in the martial arts world. But that may be for another discussion and certainly not directly pertaining to Cung Le, whom I have never met, and who has proven himself to be an excellant fighter.

I briefly trained with Mr. Li Tai Liang in his unique style of Shanxi Xing Yi Quan in the basement of his Flushing apartment several years ago. He has a video of the 5 Elements that you should be able to find a copy of to get a visual of his style. I would consider Li Tai Liang to be my first Xing Yi instructor and respect his ability, knowledge and enthusiasm to teach the arts. He immediately had us starting out with Neigong stance training. If you consider such "internal power" techniques. I certainly would not consider muscle bound or tight. He placed a high emphasise on flexibility and mobility, which fits accordingly to his physical stature. He is not a big guy, but capable of producing high impact blows, speaking from personal experience. I have also found many martial artists and some who are not, able to deliver power in such an impressive manner. Li Tai Liang certainly has the techniques of Xing Yi, Bagua, but I never really gravitated towards his Tai Chi. I was going to him to learn about Xing Yi Quan. He has a beautiful spear form and a short stick form that was teaching to the Chinese National Police. If you would like a full bio on him, I can post it seperately. Other than that, you are more than welcome to ask any other specific questions that I would be more than happy to answer if I can.

Best Regards, Keith

Keith,
What exactly do you mean "Unfortunately it is the air of FEAR"? I really don't understand what you mean by that. Are they afraid or are they trying to make others afraid of them? I don't understand, could you clear it up?

If it's an intimidating air about them then I'd say Boo Yaah! I really like psyching out people. I used to walk around places and with my "I'll kill ya in your tracks if you touch me fool" (I'm a white suburban boy if you didn't know )look and people would actually cross to the other side of the hall, isle, ect. when passing me from the opposite direction.

As an external martial artist who is interested in internal principles, I've found that (I believe Tim called it "The killing air" somewhere in his comparison between external and internal arts) the fighting spirit as I like to call it is very powerful. You can see it in the eyes and you can feel it when you get hit by someone who has it. If you don't have it in some way, just pack up and go home before someone with it tears off your head. (Yes, I do spend hours each day just thinking about fighting, formulating counter moves for demonstration techniques I've seen in live demonstrations, tv, movies, magazines, ect., wondering if I could harden my fingers enough to deliver blows hard enough to break ribs with my finger tips, and more)

Let me just get this off my chest. Contrary to what most internal people say, any good external fighter is not full of tension, muscle bound, slow, weak chi or what not. If they were muscle bound, slow or full of tension they could not hit hard. And believe me, a good external fighter could ko the crap out of most tai chi guys who only practice forms or stances or walking but lets not go there right not. If you want to just start another discusison for the subject I'll be glad to discuss it there.

Well said Mont...
Oddly enough... there are alot of well built muscular people(weight lifters) that are internal artists and perform extremely well. I read an article one time on a famous Yang stylist, and he was an avid body builder and had alot of mass and bulk. However, he said if you follow the rules of Taichi while you are practicing or fighting etc. your muscles will not affect or come into play(no muscle tension). Besides for appearance... the article stated weights were a good supplement to build connecting tissue and strengthen ligiments...

I do know this... I have seen many external artists that are well built and remain as relaxed as a tai chi fighter and the external guy can hold his own.

ALso, if you check out the other threads on the differences between so-called "internal" and "external" arts, you may come to the conclusion that they simply refer to different ways of using the body to generate power. At least, that is what I have found so far.

I would suspect that there is a great deal of difference in physical strength between the average modern taiji player (Yang -style anyway) and the average taiji player from a hundred years ago. Anyone who fought for a living or had been a farmer or manual labourer would have the kind of day-to-day strength that is unknown today unless you train seriously.

Strength conditioining in moderation is important to any martial system that can claim to provide self-defense skills.

After all, you never know when you will have to suddenly change directions to avoid annoying a young man with a "killing air" who is stalking down the street, proud of his invincibility! ;-}

Michael,

Lol, I don't usually do that anymore unless I'm having a bad day.

Anyway, I think that people now a days are weak because of cars, computers, robots, technology, ect. I'm not a proponent of body building however because most of the muscle they build is useless fluff and body builders are actually not very strong in comparison to there bodyweight. There are other ways to lift weights that are far more effective.

The stronger you are (assuming you know how to use your strength for the specific task at hand), the better you will be at any type of athletic endeavor, including fighting.

Hi Mont
I agree with everything you have to say. 100% that the majority of "external" martial artists could 'defeat' the majority of "internal" martial artists, hands down, especially if they (IA) are not out there testing their skills in a dynamic, competitive situation. You need some personal biofeedback input in order to adjust and adapt to the present situation. I also appreciate your open mindedness and willingness to explore the principles of the "internal" martial arts outside of whatever "external" martial arts you practice. Many talented and knowledgeable Americans have come to the "internal" through their previous "external" training.

I believe the Bruce Lee's example of integrating the highest essence of the individual arts to make up one that suits you best. Fact of the matter, it always come down to the size of the individual's heart "spirit" over martial art technique.

I am certainly willing to explain further concerning my use of language and the word 'fear'. I may have put a bit too much keyboard emphasis on FEAR. I can sometimes be a little dramatic. All I really have to say is that we fear that which we don't know. I can understand the place of the intimidation game since I have been involved in competitive athletics my whole life. I spent the past 12 years working in New York City night clubs and have witnessed a handful of 6'8", 320 lbs. 'fear' a crowd of 100's to submission. Sometimes just for fun. But it's place is not in our everyday lives.

concerning weights; my experience in athletics was that there was alot of lifting weights, which I had found detremental to my own internal training so I stopped many years ago. But I have always heard that Tai Chi will make whatever else you do better. I think the most important thing is to do what you enjoy. Who really cares what anyone else has to say about your own personal practise. No one has the right to impose their version of the truth upon someone else.

Btw, there is a nice article in this month's Black Belt about Frank Shamrock's Warrior Yoga. Neither Frank nor Randy Couture are muscle bound guys, but they are devastating fighters, whom both train in Brazilian jiu-jitsu (the soft art).

Best Regards, Keith

"I really like psyching out people. I used to walk around places and with my "I'll kill ya in your tracks if you touch me fool" (I'm a white suburban boy if you didn't know )look and people would actually cross to the other side of the hall, isle, ect. when passing me from the opposite direction."

Mont, when you get into 12th grade, take a Psychology course and you'll learn that people who 'enjoy psyching out' people by staring them down to in a threatening manner are doing so out of their own fear and over compensating for their own weakness. Those people aren't crossing the street because they think you're tough or fear you- they're instinctively recognize that you're giving the appearance of someone who is out to prove something- technically, they aren't the ones who are afraid- they are just avoiding the one who is afraid because they have better things to do than deal with your issues.

Shane

Shane,

Lol, interesting psycho-analysis. I wonder where you got your degree in psychology. What conclusions would you make about someone like Ali who on several occasions stared at his opponent because he beat them to a pulp. George Foreman and many other great fighters (I'm sure some of the chinese guys from the past would do that too) would do similar things. It's all mind games. I don't go around beating people up. I once passed someone in a hardware store (around 20 or so years old) who had a similar look to mine, we both just nodded out of respect and passed each other without grabbing a 2x4 and trying to "prove" anything.

In my experience the people who go around posting their own amateur opinions on the mental health of people they don't know on martial arts internet message boards have some of there own problems to deal with. Maybe your time would be better spent trying to figure out Bob #2 he always confuses and amuses me with his "insights"

By the way, I've read some on psychology and the entire field amuses me on one level and bores me on another level. The mind is such a powerful thing, it often defies careful catagorization. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. (how often are those silly F.B.I. profilers just plain wrong? The Captial area sniper wasn't a disgruntled white male now was he?)

P.S. Wouldn't it be ironic if Shane actually has a degree in psychology and I just made a fool of myself?

Junior,

drawing a comparrison between Mohammed Ali and George Forman, two of the best heavy weight boxers in history, with a mid-pubescent white boy birddogging people in a mall is just gag-laughably dorky.

If you want to talk about psychology, go back and listen to any of George Forman's interviews when he talks about why he was such a punk and thug as a kid. He admits he was scared of being percieved as weak and thought (wrongly) that he would overcome that fear by beating up people and terrifying them. It wasn't a conscience decission at the time- He didn't realize it until he matured into being a man. Maybe you'll get lucky like he did.


your time would be better spent trying to figure out Bob#2.

I wasn't talking about Forman as a kid (think i made a typo in the previous post), I was talking about how he would psych out an opponent before a match. I am not dumb enough to think that I even come close to stacking up. Also, I don't go around beating people up. I don't have any problem being percieved as weak because it can be used as an advantage. My friends know I am strong, thats enough for me.

I also am slow to anger (people have punched me in the head and gut before trying to start a fight and I've just ignored them; if someone is that weak they don't even deserve the effort required in the few seconds the fight would last, I've also gotten hit in the head with an aluminum baseball bat but that was an accident and I was ok)

Thankfully I don't live in a time or place that requires me to stare down people, fight for my life regularly or resort to common thuggery to survive. I'm just going to go to college and become a sports doctor. That's enough for me.

your a better man than me Mont... I have one rule, and thats... I dont start it and dont look for it, but if it comes and trys to harm me... I am going to hurt that person.

There is no humility or humbleness sitting in intensive care.

Mont, good take on amateur psychologists. They always use circumstantial evidence to fit people into the categories of an inexact science while they have no knowledge of the individual in question. The notion that anyone who intimidates people with his or her eyes is automatically the owner of a weak ego ignores the possibility that perhaps the person being stared at misread the look as a "glare" due to his own inner weakness. As for the actual attempt to intimidate, that is a very old method of testing a potential opponent, or delivering the first attack before a strike has been thrown.

In current pop-psychology, "insecure" is a dirty word for some reason. But in reality, what kind of utter fool would feel absolutely secure? It is worrying about things that enable us to see where we need to fortify ourselves, and it is lack of satisfaction with ourselves that drives us to excel.

I am a tu di with LTL. he's pretty damn good when he wants to teach. if you really want to learn the skill it takes time and dedication and determination like any other skill.

the more time and effort you show the more willing he is to teach.

and you need to get physically fit to learn xing yi properly. this involves qigong, stretching, weight lifting, running, eating properly and so on.

Good post by Sohl.

In the first ever issue of Spin magazine there was a lengthy interview with Cus D'Amato regarding Mike Tyson.

He said that Tyson destroyed his opponents out of fear. He was so terrified of what his opponents would do to him, that se marched out there and devestated them out of fear that he would be hurt.

ok guys i need to state somthing improtant,
1.most of the internal training out there is bs.
2.real internal training is serous ••••!
i at some point was living in egypt and this guy called mohamad atiya was and still is teaching in alexandria a chigung course witch i have no idea of its origans or who tought him but the fact is that it was VERY effective to me and any body who tried it and not only that he had some studants that do weird ••••! NO FOOLING PEOPLE.
they were extremlly powerfull and with out no frigin mecanics or no knowladge of any internal arts as taichi or bagua or xingyi..in fact he is a normal sansau instructor but its like he could tap you and make you feel like if his fingure was like a 50 pound fingure like objsct!
ive experianced this •••• ok! so imagin if that kinda progress whent into a vigours style like xingyi for instance!
i cant imagin how an externalist could even hope to match that power force!
i mean hey theres alot of secrets that are not being revealed. take yangchinfu,chenmanching,mike paterson,erle motaigue,sunlutang.. etc.. all of these people are and will always be unmatched by an externalist. no matter what style!