There are some great points here. ParttimeMA makes a good point about 'traditional styles' not surviving if they had nothing to offer. The question is how closely the techniques and training of the modern forms compare with what the creators and early students actually practiced, and the situations they were preparing for. In addition, there is the overwhelming importance of actual experience.

All the cool stories about light skill/death touch/empty force aside, real training in the old days was physically demanding conditioning, with an emhasis on repetition of basics and simple, practical technique (just as it is for today's MMA fighters, although the strategy is different). Realize that stories about the 'fights' of the old masters that are so often held up as examples of 'real fighting' were not 'street fights.' They were challenge matches with other martial artists, with implied rules (no biting, gouging, striking after an opponent submits... sound familiar?)Another point often overlooked by the story tellers is that (at least in China), challenge matches between martial artists ended when one of the fighters hit the ground. It was forbidden to either strike a downed opponent or ground grapple.

Cage or ring fights are not "street fights", but sparring with contact and resistance are alot closer to 'real fights' than training without a fully resistant opponent that is hitting back.

Here's a dose of reality MMA hasn't seen:

We found the combatants… fast clinched by the hair, and their thumbs endeavoring to force a passage into each other’s eyes; while several of the bystanders were betting upon the first eye to be turned out of its socket. For some time the combatants avoided the thumb stroke with dexterity. At length they fell to the ground, and in an instant the uppermost sprung up with his antagonist’s eye in his hand!!! The savage crowd applauded, while, sick with horror, we galloped away from the infernal scene. The name of the sufferer was John Butler, a Carolinian, who, it seems, had been dared to the combat by a Georgian; and the first eye was for the honor of the state to which they respectively belonged.

http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm

From Empty flower forum..

Quote from guy living/studing MA in china:
i don't think so that is that true!!!
 
i talked to my teacher and another old guys and they never heard about this rules
 
Moreover in Fujian province people still practice Dog style which is almost normal ground grappling-hitting style //

if something is true for some but not for everyone i think that it is not a normal rule for a leitai matches
according to what i heard on leitai matches had not any rules without one that you need to fight on it and if you fall down out leitai platform you will loose (in some leitai competition if you fell down from leitai you died to because of sharp bamboo sticks which were put in the ground)

-----
I'm sure that was true for some, but not for everyone. Everyone had their own set of rules to fight, and to say that it was always this, or always that avoids common sense. I asked my teacher about the groundfighting and if it was done by his teachers in challange matches, and he said no because it wasn't needed. He told me about one of his teachers, Chang Tung Sheng who fought and beat Wrestlers and JuJitsu people, men who used allot of groundfighting. But, Chang never had to groundfight, he just used his Shuai Chaio. Other teachers he told me about, who were not as famous had rough fights, not challange matches with rules. Aside from my personal stroies, other stories I have heard contradict what Tim Cartmell said. Kumar Franzitz talked about Wang Shu Jin using a particular technique to break opponents spines in challange matches, that sounds like a very rough fight.

A couple of points:

First, the Dog Boxing from Fujian (at least that I have seen) includes almost no ground grappling. The style is based on fighting a standing attacker while you are on the ground. There are alot of leverage based takedowns from the ground position, and many striking techniques (mostly with the legs), but virtually no 'grappling' as in two people wrestling for position and submission.

Second, I never said that ALL fights were challenge matches, of course martial artists got into knock down drag out street fights. I'm talking about the fights between famous martial artists that are better documented (most often by the press). We all have a story about our teacher's teacher killing some challenger with a single deadly technique. It's probably a good idea to remember how stories seem to get better every time their told. Tomasz is relaying the information his teachers gave him, I'm relating the information my teachers gave me (as well as printed accounts of many of the challenge matches). Modern Leitai fighting is patterned after Ching Dynasty Leitai fighting. Although there are more rules in the modern version, the fight ending when one of the fighters either hit the floor or was knocked off the platform has always been so.

Groundfighting "wasn't needed." Why? Because every time someone was knocked down they were dead or unconscious? Not likely (Chang Dong Shen was the greatest Chinese wrestler of his generation, but I've never heard of him killing anyone with a throw in a match). So why wasn't groundfighting needed? Perhaps it was because the "rule" was that once you hit the ground (even if you were still conscious and alive), you were considered the loser.

One more point on killing and crippling opponent's in challenge matches. Murder was and is illegal in China. Unless the person telling you the story about his "death match" is doing it from prison, it isn't likely anyone was really killed in the fight. The one actually documented case of a fighter killing another in a challenge match (on a Leitai, where a fighter who killed the other was supposed to be exonerated of the offense) ended in the 'winner,' Guo Yun Shen, spending several years in jail.

HAHA...
 
I give up...i don't know who to believe on this whole ground fighting business.  
 
I just read the post above by Tim and he again makes very good points just like others have made.
 
For every "A" point there is a "B" counter. For every "B" there is a "C" into infinity. For every master "D" that specializes in ground work he is undefeated. For every master "E" who specialies in style "F" with no ground work he is undefeated. For every master "g" that knows 100 choke out that's undefeated there's a master "h" to bite his finger off and break his back who is undefeated.
 
To conclude that there is no "true" answer from either party that will satisfy my need for an answer.  
 
The only logical conclusion for myself is to know a little ground fighting..but keep the main bulk of my training in Pa Kua. To try to see how much skill I can actually develop? And see what's bunk and what's real.   
 
Thanks again for all the answers/questions and back to looking for my own answers through experience...back to practice.
 
Best to all.

oh,

Tim thanks for being so patient...

you must tire of these crazy debates that will go on forever...as my teachers must tire of me asking them also.

Until I can do these things i guess I will always question.

With their skill it works just as with your skill it works.

Thanks.

Walkthecircle,
It's always good to question, and I agree with you, experience is the best teacher.

Good luck in your training,

Tim

Tim,

Keep speaking the truth!

Of course, you realize it is a losing battle, when you step on people's cherished dreams.

Xing Yi is proven in battle? The battle of the feet and hands? Xing Yi may be based on spear technique but when you drop the spear, you no longer have an effective battle art, you have an unarmed striking/kicking/grapplig method. VERY different thing. Then go 400 years of NOT engaging in battle with it and see where it leaves you. The WWII-era drilling is probably as close as you will get to it being a "battle" art and that was more for drilling soldiers.

As for the guys that have used it in such a context, the story is more about them than it is the art of choice. That's why so many Vietnam vet-veteran cops turn out to be judo and karate men....mere sports, not "battle" arts...but they can tell you how to use it for real in any number of ways.

The "old Chinese story" trump card is tired out. Recently on Empty Flower, one thread pulled out the old stories "proving" some Chinese martial arts master beat a grappler, yet in another thread there were stories on Wan Laisheng and someone else, each camp had a different outcome to the fight, and all of it was placed in the proper context when someone pointed out that virtually all of the old stories are apocryphal , and should be taken for what they are...interesting stories.

How do you train: listening to stories and dreaming of having abilities like that? Or conditioning yourself, and fighting and drilling hard, and maybe getting a job like bodyguarding or boucing or law enforcement where you can do it yourself and see what it's like. FAR too many traditional martial artists choose storytelling. So sad. Guys like Guo Yunshen and Zhang Zhaodong would laugh!

Thanks Kit,
I still can't figure out why it is so hard for some people to understand that deceased historical figures are of very little help when someone is trying to kick your ass in the present.
Just because no one could take Dong Hai Chuan down, doesn't mean they can't take you or me down. It's not what anyone else can do, it is what can YOU do.

It seems that other Internal martial artists are disturbed by the fact we also practice groundfighting. The logic seems to be "our art is, of course perfect and complete, we don't have groundfighting, therefore it isn't necessary." My background may be a little different. I've been on the ground in fights (not by choice). I was attacked once while sitting on the grass in a public place when I was about 18. I managed to take the attacker down from the ground (after receiving some abuse) and fortunately he didn't know any more about groundfighting than I did. If he had, I would have been in a world of sh!t. The attacker didn't give me the courtesy of allowing me to stand up before he attacked.

I never advocate going to the ground in a real fight at all. I do advocate learning at least some basic groundfighting just in case. The usual response from other CMA practitioners is "Grandmaster X beat a wrestler once, so I don't need to learn how to fight on the ground." or "My teacher knocked all of his opponents out standing, why learn to groundfight." Fair enough, but if they ever do get taken down by a determined attacker (one that may be much stronger and more experienced), Grandmaster X and their teacher won't be there to help.

Tim,
Its good to see your thoughts expressed again. For example when you wrote,"I still can't figure out why it is so hard for some people to understand that deceased historical figures are of very little help when someone is trying to kick your ass in the present.", crystalizes the thoughts that have been forming in my mind on the whole "lineage" issue. I have been struggling with this issue since I started training with internal artists, most of whom are well versed in lineage.

But like all good ideas, there is need for balance, and you illustrate the other side of the coin well when you wrote, "ParttimeMA makes a good point about 'traditional styles' not surviving if they had nothing to offer. The question is how closely the techniques and training of the modern forms compare with what the creators and early students actually practiced, and the situations they were preparing for." To me, this places the benefits of the lineage issue back to the front, with the balancing notion that you have to use your critical mind when determining what is wheat and what is chaff from the material you are shown. It seems to me this is an ongoing process, that needs room for re-evaluation as your exeprience and understanding of your art and its applications grow.

And finally when you wrote, "In addition, there is the overwhelming importance of actual experience." To me, this emphasizes the point that THE most important "secret technique" in any training is nothing but work. Sweat, effort, reflection, more sweat, testing of skills with training partners, and again back to the mat, more sweat.

I hope I haven't gone on to long, but the transition form one methodology of training (external, for lack of a better term) to internal (again, for lack of a better word) has forced me to rethink everything I do in my daily training, which is probably the best thing that ever happened to me. To quote my alma mater, the learning never stops.

Thanks for a great forum,
Walter

p.s. I also don't see why people have a problem with the fact that you offer a balanced curriculum that includes grappling.

"Sweat, effort, reflection, more sweat, testing of skills with training partners, and again back to the mat, more sweat."

Walter let the secret out.

...and silk PJs!

Yeah but all that sweat ruins the damn silk.

there's another ancient Chinese secret,
a very thick layer of Scotch-Guard on the
inside of the silk PJs makes you look smooth,
cool and collected- even if you're sweating like a marathon runner's scrotum.

"I still can't figure out why it is so hard for some people to understand that deceased historical figures are of very little help when someone is trying to kick your ass in the present."

Great Tim!

Let's all train hard to fulfill our personal goals!

Here is a little video matrial ...Hope it will help.


http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_showall.asp?cat_id=54&parent_id=14&parent_name=Videos&sub_name=Misc%2E+Videos

cut and paste link above to your browser adress line

In MMA vs. kung fu, the kung fu guy looks like he
would lose to a husky child. He just walks up in an open, "please punish me" stance and tries a weak, well telegraphed kick. What does "kung fu" mean anyway...I have good "kung fu" at spinning pens in my hands, weaving them throughout my fingers in a spectacular manner...

i think there is alot of misconception about modern martial arts and mma.For the past five years or so we've seen all kinds of new(old) stuff working in the ring like pro wrestling moves by sakuraba ,slams of quinton jackson, effective gi-less judo gokors and lebells student, i even seen mark kerr get ddt (wwf style) recenty. even bruce lee said high kicks wouldnt be good in a fight but look at mirco crocop. i think when someone confident uses effective stand up jujutsu or shaui chaio the mma world will once again reach a new level.

small joint manipulation is illegal so no jiu jitsu or chin na in the ufc.