Your Honor, I move for a directed verdict!

This man John Painter is a joke. Take a look at his website. There's a picture of two soldiers he claims to be Li Long Dao his teacher and Li Zhang Lai, Long Dao's father serving in Chiang Kai Shek's army. According to the lineage chart, Li Zhang Lai was born in 1850 and Li Long Dao in 1880. Chiang Kai Shek became leader of the Kuomintang in 1925, suceeding Dr, San Yat Sun. Even if both Li Zhang Lai and Li Long Dao joined Chiang Kai Shek's army in 1925 (they might have joined a few years later), that would made them 75 years and 45 years old respectively in that picture. There's no way in the world the elder Li looks 75 years old in the photo and I doubt that Chiang Kai Shek would want anyone to begin his career in his army at aged 75 years.

Painter desperately needs "hard evidence" to back up his outlandish claims.

And what about the photo Painter purorts to be Li Zhang Lai and Li Long Dao, both in army uniform? Take a closer look. It's a picture of two Japanese soldiers.

Many modern martial arts teachers have been "creative" in describing their lineage and training history in the same way that falsified resumes is a real problem for employers trying to choose a new employee. Honesty is not held in the high esteem that it once was so it remains essential that a beginner do some research on the styles that interest him or her and that they take the trouble of visiting a number of prospective teachers before choosing a school.

I suppose that some would also argue that falsifying lineage also seems to have been common in China in the "old days" as venerable was always better and innovative martial approachs were always suspect. Particularly, but not exclusively in the internal arts, there are a suspicious number of anonymous taoist monks or mythical figures who are supposed to have transmitted their "secrets" in dreams or through mysterious texts that suddenly turn up on store floors.

It seems to be true that the truth is often obscured by what we want to see and believe and not by what really exists.

Caveat Emptor...

Hi All,

About the Emei Mountains and Baguazhang

"History is a pale shadow of the truth"

This has been an interesting thread filled with some "hot" opinions some expressed as opinions and others expressed at truth and reality. I think it is a good idea from the beginning to realize that all of history especially in the martial arts is mostly opinion and not fact. It is speculation based on rumor and written accounts. Just because it is in writing or is the
prevalent "party line" does not make it so. A friend of mine once said, "History is written by those in power. It isn't all ways the truth but it
serves their purpose." Some enjoy debating what might be or should have been or isn't. For me it is not my area of interest.

What has been interesting is to see the various versions of these stories told by others and how some will passionately hold to their legends as facts or take some off hand comment as an imagined insult to the author or their teacher. It is also amusing and somewhat sad to read comments from students whom I thought took better notes at my lectures. J

For example: My friend Bruce Frantzis's teacher of Baguazhang was not outside of the Dong lineage. He lived in Beijing and was according to Bruce a lineage holder in the Dong, Hai-Chuan methods. His art was not pre-dong or from the
Daoist as was posted earlier. Mr. Frantzis did write in his book that there were methods of circle walking and what we identify as Baguazhang like arts practiced by Daoists for over 2000 years. This does pre-dated Dong, Hai-Chuan
introducing his methods which he allegedly gave the name Baguazhang?

Let me say from the outset that as far as the art I play that I know only what my teacher has said and what I know of other systems is what I have read
in some books. I don't claim to be an expert on Chinese history or Baguazhang historical facts. I don't care to debate what my teacher said. As a boy I listened and trained. Fact or fiction in the stores only spiced them up and made it more fun. What is important is that I got pretty good at doing the physical and mental things he showed me and he called it Nine Dragon Baguazhang from Emei Mountain.

There are some that claim that Baguazhang did not exist in Sichuan's Emei mountain area and that Baguazhang has no connection with the Yijing. There are others that say it was added by Dong, Hai-Chuan's students later and then
imported to Sichuan. The fact is that no one really knows the truth not you or I. We were not there and all we have is the word of someone else who told someone else who may or may not have written it down.

As far as I am concerned it does not matter if there were systems of Baguazhang that came to Emei or developed in Emei or if other systems have no such connections to the Yijing. This one, the Jiulong (nine dragon)Baguazhang system does connect to the Yijing for me and now for my students because I was taught it that way by a Chinese teacher who claimed he and his father learned it that way from their teacher in Emei Mountain area of Sichuan Province.

I was not taught by Dong, Hai-Chuan I was taught by Li, Long-dao. When I learned what I call Jiulong or Nine Dragon Baguazhang I was very young and I had no reason to doubt our question my teacher. I accepted his teaching,which had 90% training and principles of combat and about 10% history.

"What is in a name? A rose would smell as sweet with any other name."

I can call it Emei Jiulong Baguazhang because my teacher came form Emei and said he learned it there. It is a Ba Gua Zhang because it has (Ba) eight (Gua) Shape (Zhang) Palms a series of hand shapes used in martial arts training that conform very closely to those found in the majority of Beijing based martial arts also called Baguazhang.

Notice that I always attach the prefix of Nine Dragon or Jiulong to the word Baguazhang. That is so there will be no mistake that it is a special style of Baguazhang from the Li family with it's own unique concepts and methods.

I have labored for over 35 years to learn from and use the Yijing concepts attached to this method to illuminate and clarify my understanding of the Jiulong Baguazhang system as I was shown it. So in this system I can say that I was told it originates from Emei and that it does have a connection to the Yijing.

For me and the way I train these things do exist and they have a major role to play in the Jiulong Baguazhang method. In this method we strive to gain an understanding of how to use the mind to generate images that empower the body. This has enhanced not only my understanding of the art but it also has given it a hitherto unrealized depth of mind/body psychophysiology. For me it
(the system) continues to do what all things in the Dao are supposed to do, evolve and change. I would think all Baguazhang should do this, erhaps not?

Frankly I do not care what systems of Baguazhang others train in. I do not care where they came from. It is not my job to be the Bagua police! I am sure they are all fine methods with great concepts. I am quite content to do the method I was taught and what others do is their business and is perfectly fine with me.

It seems a great many people spend an inordinate amount of time attempting to verify if this or that method originated from this or that place or belongs to this or that lineage and if it is Baguazhang or not Baguazhang. I guess this is a fine hobby. I however am glad it is not one of mine as it leaves me more time to train in my teacher's style and I don't give a hoot where it
came from.

I will include an un-edited reprint of an informative article that appeared in IAM magazine as a collaborative effort by the well know Shifu,
Liang, Shou-Yu, Mr. Troy Kuan and yours truly on the martial arts of Emei Shan. It might clear up some of the ideas about Emei and the Baguazhang
systems that come from that region. I would say that Mr. Liang has grown up in Sichuan and is something of a legend in that province. He is also well versed in history especially of the area in which he was born. All that being
said it is still just what he has observed and what he has read the same as it is with you or I. The older I get the more I come to understand that
nothing is for sure and any time I get certain that I know something for sure it worries me.

I hope it will be of some interest.

Thank you
Dr.John P. Painter PhD. ND

Funny, despite the long post ( Out of 10 I'd give it a 9 for long ;-) perhaps this is the true origin of the system name) mr Painter doesn't address any of the issues of the Japanese soldiers who don't look 75.

they were probably Dunédain on an undercover mission disguised as Japanese soldiers.

They'll probably disappear from the website soon too.

After a while the amount of research needed to create vaguely historically accurate publicity material must become cripplingly time consuming.

"Something is rotten in the state of Denmark."
Just to quote a little Bill Shakespeare.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet--unless someone shat on it.

Who knows whether or not that was even Mr. Painter wasting keystrokes on trying to defend himself, but regardless, something smells stinky about that fellow. I think he should muster up some real courage and go to the Shen Wu School where he can at least learn bagua for real. What a waste of time going all these years learning either half-assed bagua or making some stuff up to make a buck. I highly encourage him to get on a righteous path and learn the real thing.

I got a kick out of that website where they show Mr. Painter dressed as a Texas Ranger and in that funny little commando outfit, striking some bagua poses for the camera. It's almost surreal as I looked at those pictures. I was wondering to myself who would stop and look at these funny pictures and say to themselves, "Yes, this is the guy I want to learn martial arts from." At least Mr. B.K. Franzis has his "Qi" shtick.

Dr. John! I'm a huge fan of yours. That song you sang where you were like "...I was in the right place.... but it must've been the wrong time..." was one of my favorite.

I must admit though, that your post read like a cleverly worded argument for teaching bullsh*t to goofballs and I think you should stick to playing piano and singing songs.

Can I have your autograph?
Bob#2

Reading the text again

'My friend Bruce Frantzis's teacher of Baguazhang. '

To my knowledge Bruce Frantzis has no friends! Certainly to be a friend of Bruce Frantzis is one of the more bizarre claims I've heard made in a long time.

Hey Mr. Painter,

How many "Omega Levels" are there in the Bagua you teach?

Where did you get the PHD?

What does 'ND' stand for?

I viewed a few of your videos (thankfully, I didn't pay for them)- where did the 'Lake Palm, Thunder Palm, Heaven Palm and Fire Palms' come from????

and Lastly- if you were taught those palms by the strange old Chinese guy who took you under his wing, and you were told by a well educated, Chinese historian that those palms never existed and it was all malarky- would you stop using such silly names for palms?

Genuinely curious,
Shane

www.gaostylebaqua.com

Is the fellow on this site the same Lao that was one of Tims teachers and did two videos where Tim played a supporting role?

That is Luo Dexiu, one of Mr. Cartmell's primary IMA teachers.
They did some videos together. That site is owned by Marcus Brinkman, Luo Laoshi's most senior student. Another new resource for Gao style BaGua is www.yizongbagua.com which is hosted by George Wood another student of Luo Dexiu.

BTW - Welcome back from Thailand Tim. I know you were on a secret Ninja death mission, so let's can this crap about giving a seminar!

My cover is blown.

Someone has sure stirred up a hornet's nest on John Painter in the Kung Fu Forum. A person by the name of Philbert is defending him tooth and nail. Go and check.

RE: Painter

I "studied" with J. Painter foe 8 years over a period of 20 years, having to constnatly relocate because of personal issues. I never missed a day of practise and practised everything he taught.

The first thing I would like to clear up, or try to clear up, is that I BELIEVE Mr Painter could EASILY mop up the floor with EVERYONE in this forum - ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

However, looking back at my time in the "GOMPA", I believe it was mostly wasted time and wasted money. I said MOSTLY.

The fact is, Mr Painter continues to CHANGE his teaching method every 4 - 5 years!? The problem is that his students never get anywhere. It's always the same old story - THE BASICS... but we never got past that!?

Look at the current "NEW" method he is offering:
It says with his "NEW" system, all you have to do is "work" at it? Isn't that true with every system? AND it stresses that this is a "new way" to learn the basics!? It's ALWAYS a new way to learn the basics at the GOMPA but there is no evidence of progression, or progress to the next level?

I was always told that his "method" is like a ladder - Once you master the first, or current "rung", you can move on to the next rung on the ladder. The problem with this is two-fold.
FIRST, I PAID FOR & PRACTICED ALL info given but, for some reason, could not get to the "next level"? SECOND, I was told, on other occasions, that I would never master any of this - THAT IT WAS A LIFE-LONG JOURNEY!?

I was also told that many other so-called masters and schools walk around the circle, waving there hands in the air while achieving nothing and YET, that is what most every student of the GOMPA does.

The "GOMPA" sometimes advertises that over 4000 students have been served yet there are only a handful who have been taken care of and I do not believe even 1% of the total could use ANYTHING they learned while at the GOMPA in there own self defense.

After years of study, thousands of dollars and waiting, I came to the conclusion that YOU CAN NOT MASTER ANYTHING if you don't practice AND you can NOT practice if you are NOT TAUGHT!.

NOW the assumptions.....
Dr Painter has visited many MA schools with impressive results and I do believe he has "SOMETHING"?! He just won't teach whatever it is that he has!? I believe his teaching method is flawed and here is my suggestion to all who wish to learn from him:

Spend a few hours or a few days with him. You will learn a few things. If you wish to spend more time and money with him, make sure you ALREADY HAVE a method, and experience for you can take what he has to offer and ADD it to what you have but you will NEVER get past the "basics" with J. Painter and his GOMPA.

The "BAGUA" class is divided into three parts, basic, intermediate and advanced. In the basics class, all you do is walk back and forth across the room with no intent, other than walking back and forth across the room. In the intermediate class, you will learn how to do the turns and walk around a circle WITHOUT ANY hand forms. In the "ADVANCED" class, you will walk the circle with ONE STATIC HAND FORM and NOTHING ELSE!?

There are no "form" in "his" BauGua and NO linking forms!?

I was also told that I was paying for lecture and nothing else AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I GOT!

He DOES NOT teach ANY;

weapons
two man forms
push hands
iron body
iron palm
Hsing-I forms(NONE)
BA GUA forms(NONE)
forms of ANY kind,
other than "HIS" TAI CHI?
nutrition
nei gong
wai gong
chi gung

Nothing but the basics!

If you don't believe me, go see for yourself.
But be aware that I warned you;
More than one year in his bagua or hsing-i class and you will be wasting your time and money AND

HE WILL MOP UP THE FLOOR WITH YOUR FACE,
I don't care whose face it is.

To finish, I would like to say that I do not appreciate the GOMPA taking my time and money and giving back so little while promoting and advancing others with less time and skill within the kwoon.

I have lost most respect for the GOMPA and MR Painter - NOT as a MA, but as a person and teacher.

SO, I learned my lesson and I move on.
Good luck to all of you, including the GOMPA.

In reply to Mr. LO Nelms,

There are a few points I want to make.

1. It’s easy to continuously mop the floor with your students,
if you are well trained and teach your students nothing.

2. As for you believing “Mr Painter could EASILY mop up the
floor with EVERYONE in this forum - ALL AT THE SAME TIME.”

a. No matter how good of a fighter you are, you can be
defeated with sufficient numbers and/or other
augmentations to the opposing forces.

b. Tim is member of this forum.

c. A lot well of train martial artists who don’t train at Tim’s
are well mannered members of this forum.

d. Tim has a lot of well train students; I am not well train
myself but, as Bob #2 can vouch for, I am big, strong, smart,
ugly, and absolutely vicious.

3. You have proven yourself not to be very bright, spending
thousands of dollars and countless hours studying “Nothing”
with Mr. Painter (the same can be said of Mr. Painter himself).
Therefore, your generous opinion of Mr. Painter is worthless.

F#$% OFF

But you have to love all those quotation marks. And tenacity, considering the post before his was from Feb 04 this must have been eating at his craw for some time. Lighten up, Francis.

Buddy,

I didn't realize that until you pointed that out. It was from Feb 20, 2004, well over a year.

Mr. LO Nelms,

In response to your last post and your private message to me, in which you said, "You are an ASSUMER and an INSINUATOR. And full of ••••", I must point out that you are the one that assume Mr. Painter "could EASILY mop up the floor with EVERYONE in this forum - ALL AT THE SAME TIME."

I must ask ... did you find my rebuttal flawed? If so, how? Even the best martial artist will think twice facing 5-6 regular men, much less a much greater number of trained martial artists.

As for being an insinuator, I assure you, I never insinuate anything. I am telling you as directly as possible that there is no way in Hell can Mr. Painter beat up anyone in this forum if he takes us all on at once. And I am telling you that anyone who faces that many people in a fight, trained or not, will get their ass kicked. You do know that there are a LOT of members in this forum right?

Also, seeing how what you say about Mr. Painter defies belief, logic and reason, I am telling you in the most painfully direct way possible, you are full of ••••.

If you disagree or find flaws in anything I've said, please feel free to respond. But do so in an intelligent, rational, and logical manner.

Sincerely,
DDV

PS I find your private response very cowardly.

DDV,
Don't waste your time, it's just a troll.

trolls are mythical creatures. Created to keep children from wondering too far from mother's protective gaze.

Bob #2