no single palm and no double palm, either....?
go see for yourself.....

it's almost funny how this thread is about "painter" but you just can't seem
to stay on subject?

good for you "bolen"
if this is true.... IF this is true, it only
proves one point, painter took my money, as well
as others, and did NOT take the time to show
much of anything of value.

if what you say is true,
then what does that make painter?

as far as the grammer and such, if Tim would
upgrade this "board" to a newer "PHP" version,
maybe we could use something other than CAPS
and "quotes"!?

the only funny ones are the clowns and idiot
savants in this thread who can not seem to stay
ON SUBJECT.

I am not the subject here. I see that you
"jokers" find that hard to believe but the only
other post in this thread is from "bolen" and
"don't pay attention to the finger".

well, let's see....
approximately 8 years at approximately $40 per
month - approximately $4,000.

4 "weekend" seminars at $180 each - $700
other various seminars - $500

uniformd, books, manuals AND tapes - $500

not including travel, time and
wear and tear on my vehicle.

also, most of this time was in the bagua class
and most of that time was in the so-called
ADVANCED bagua class. I believe I could compete
and was possibly one of the better students in
this so-called "advanced" class (as you can
see, this is not saying much) and we never
covered ANY of the above and previously mentioned
subjects.

for the most part, all we did was sit for lecture
or stand around, or walk around, waving our hands
in the air?! he simply would not teach self
defense in this "advanced" bagua class?

we had to take ANOTHER class and pay for that,
which was not so much bagua as it was hsingI and taichi?

maybe things have changed since then, but after
twenty years of nothing but the "basics", I doubt it.

Painter would not teach ME, yet
he continued to take my money.....?

AGAIN, Painter does not, or WILL not teach and
that makes his "teaching method" flawed.....
regardless of what you think of me.

hehehehehehahahahaha ..... clowns

Painter wouldn't teach you, but you kept giving him money.... and who is the clown in that senario?

What's "PHP?"

What Mr. Painter teaches or doesn't teach is nobody's business but his own and his students. Publicly decrying any instructor is stinking your nose where it doesn't belong Bob#2, or any one else that gets on the net to do this.

If I had a conscience I would agree.

but in this case, I'm publicly decrying the student who publicly decried Painter. (Which gives me the creeps)

It is not a matter of conscience. It is a matter of responsibility. Your right in one sense though Mr. Nelms should have taken this up with Painter. Not the rest of use on the net.

John attended Texas Tech University, with a double major in Psychology and Performing Arts. His specific area of study in psychology was hypnotherapy and psychotherapeutic healing. In theatre he specialized in Shakespearean drama and performing magic and escapes.He trained and became a clinical hypnotherapist.

John Painter is very legit, if you think not, you haven't trained with him. He is not only a great martial artist, but an outstanding person.
Bob Caldara is his main bagua person
Sifu Grarza, main tai chi and sifu marshall his main xing yi, his certified students can be counted on your fingers, who ever else claims this is just distorting the fact. All internal arts rely on very strong basics, without these you will never be able to do the internal part of the arts. I speak to Sifu/Dr/Mr Painter every once in a while and have trained with him, he is very legit, just like tim is, I would not be foolish enough to compare, because this is for kids, Tim is great and so is John, no two ways about it. If you think he is a fraud show up to one of his workshops, your mind will change quickly.

I should add, this statement is so false it is funny:

"He does NOT teach;

weapons
two man forms
push hands
iron body
iron palm
Hsing-I forms(NONE)
BA GUA forms(NONE)
forms of ANY kind, other than "his" TAI CHI?
nutrition
nei gong
wai gong
chi gung"

I find it hard to beleive you ever worked with him. He teaches all of these except iron palm, iron shirt, and two man forms, the rest he certainly does teach. Does mountain, thunder, or heaven palm ring a bell? how about two dragons at play? dragon rolls pearl? dragon surveys domain? quiet sitting?
I hear you talking, but unfortunatly you are talking to someone who knows him. No he is not my teacher, just a friend in the arts.

"Does mountain, thunder, or heaven palm ring a bell? dragons at play? dragon rolls pearl? dragon surveys domain?"

yeah, those ring the "unauthentic" bell.

Well apparently you do not know what authentic is.

What are your authentic skills and who do you train with. If they teach you disrespect then I would imagine they do not know the real arts themselves. The amazing thing is people who are real internal artist never need to put down others, lets use Tim as an example(or maybe he is not authentic enough for you) do you here him putting others down? no, because he has real skills.
I have studied for 29 straight years now and I am a 4th and 5th generation sun bagua stylists, a 5th and 6th generation cheng stylist, and a 4th generation dragon bagua stylist, I do not train in sifu Painters bagua, but I have worked out with him and it is real.
authentic? what is authentic? no one even knows where bagua derived from, say Dong and we can logically argue about not only him, but where he got the art from, certainly his main students were some of the greatest ever, but each have their own flavor based on their original skills, so no one is authentic. Go to the gompa, or the workshops, then see what you have to say. but don't stand in silence, question what you think is unauthentic, heck you can even challenge him or Bob.
4 years in a 20 year span, and you wonder why you were doing basics? I would say for certain that you can obtain no skills with that lack of discipline and desire.You can take out Bob? I would love to see this! lets see, he has only been studying for 30+ years straight, but that 4 years in a 20 year period is close to that.
I should also mention the single and double palm changes are taught, in fact I have worked with sifu painter personally on these changes.
I post here because of my respect for Tim, but most of you guys need to grow up.
Have fun flameing me, atleast it will keep you busy for a while and give you some good laughs.
Enjoy!!!!

Firstly, No one taught me disrepect, I honed those skills on my own.

Secondly, my only point was that there is no "thunder palm or fire palm or heaven palm" in any real Chinese Martial Art.

Thirdly you asked if I can take out Bob... I don't know. If by "take him out" you mean date him, I'm strickly heterosexual. If you mean "take him out" as in kill him, I'd need a really good reason.

(By the way, Tim has been my teacher for the past few years. Come by and visit sometime.)

Tim,

All of these should be free and offer
a great deal of options:

http://www.phpbb.com/downloads.php

http://www.php-post.co.uk/index.php

http://www.wsnforum.com/

btw, I apologize for dissing another instructor on your board. I am just giving a MY opinion based on MY observations and experience. Others have blown this way out of proportion.

Well then you have a very good teacher that I am sure is an excellent role model for character building, perhaps this will rub off on you in a few more years, Tim is a great fighter, but more importantly a great person, this combination is what makes him so good, not just his physical skills alone, but how great he is in all areas of life, that is the difference between someone who is called a master and someone who truly is, and Tim is and so is John Painter.
Bagua is about change, and there is nothing authentic because everybody changes, Taichi, is not the Taichi of Sang feng, xing yi is not that of Yueh Fei or Ji Ji ke, and bagua is not that of Dong Hai, so nothing must be authentic.

I was not asking you about taking out Bob I was referring to the statement of the person who said he could take everyone in the advanced class at the gompa that is why I made the 4 years of study in a 20 year period comment, so for that fact I will say I should have stated it more clearly, so this is my fault. not to step on your ego, but unless your one of Tim's top people, then I would hope you would have a really, really good reason.

If I was anywhere near Tim I would be training with him, no doubt about it, in fact I have been corresponding with him about including him in the current book I am writing about bagua. so ohio is a bit of a drive, but I appreciate your offer, thanks!

as far as thunder palm or fire palm being in any real CMA's I would point out that the Jiulong baguazhang is based on the I ching, as is sun style, you will see gua's are related to both of these and even more, in fact there is nothing that atleast one of the gua's do not cover, whether seasons, organs, colors, foods, or whatever, they cover it.

Have you ever worked with John first hand? if not I think you would be thinking different, of course if you are lucky enough to have Tim then I wouldn't even worry about it, but i think you would like what John is doing, it works well and he is a good guy. whether you like his pictures or think he is authentic is not as important as his skills or what he has done to promote bagua and his openess to other stylists.

again have fun flameing, but it would be a little bit better if you used some details to back what you are saying, explain authentic and how much research you have in the authentic stuff to call it authentic Sun style is much different from jiulong, or cheng, or liu or dragon style, but Sun style came from cheng that came form dong that came from ? what is authentic? maybe your explanation will change my mind on him being authentic, but his skills are there.
ready, set, go!

Nelms, John is not a php, where did you get this info? so do a google on PHD, he is a PHD in Psychology.
Tim this is the real answer to your question.

Jay,

I look forward to reading your book.

I have not worked with John first-hand. After reading the bulk of his website and watching a couple of his videos at a friends house, I made the determination to never study with him. (I do respect the man's ability to market himself).


PHP was a suggestion for a new format for the discussion board.

Thanks Lo,

Ah, technology, when will it ever end?

Jay,
How is the book coming along?

Tim,

The book is going quite well. I have been on a role and been able to spend some quality time on it. I am up to around 100 pages of quality info and good writing, hope to keep it going as strong as it has been.
Thanks for asking!!!!!!!

Shane,

In your situation I would not train with John neither, you have Tim. Train hard with him and keep an open mind, you have been lucky enough to have the oppurtunity to study with one of the best of the best, you may need a few life times to learn all he has to offer, but it will be well worth it.
I have seen a few of the clips as well and I will admit they do him no justice, in fact some of them and some of the pictures are a bit "funny", but in person things are always different, sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the better.

Take care!!!

Well Shane it seems you have a real passion for what you consider to be authentic Baquazhang, good. As a result, you decided to take what you believed to be a responsible act. You perused Mr. Painter’s website, viewed a few of his videos, and concluded you did not want to study from him. OK, however when you openly and in publicly criticize Mr. Painter this is not taking responsibility it is just bickering in the streets.

A responsible act is proving to us what authentic Baquazhang is not talking about what it should be. Where are your examples? Show us your movement.

Alternatively, a good example would be a comparison of Tim’s movement of maybe six years ago to what is now. You will have to admit there is a marked difference. Some ones movement will tell you a lot about their capabilities and Tim’s are considerably higher then most. When I viewed the sparring video of Tim on this site, I got a little shock. Do you now why Shane? I realized Tim has taken his experience in ground fighting and can now do the same on his feet. This is high ability. I am willing to bet all his forms have changed considerably also. Without saying one word of criticism, Tim has proven he is not only a student of martial arts but also an instructor of it.

Somewhere along the line, all of us have to ask a question of ourselves. Am I a student of martial arts or a customer? A student takes the examples given to him or her in class and trains them on there own. When they a have a problem, they ask questions, and will research and devise training methods on their own always building upon the examples given to them by their instructor. A customer pays to be spoon-feed everything never training on their own always expecting to be feed some more.

So, Shane are you a student of martial arts with your specialty being Baquazhang or are you a customer with a specialty in mouth Kung-Fu. It is time for you to take responsibility. It is time for me to do the same.

Hi Iron Bastard,

I consider myself a Martial Arts Hobbyist. I've learned a great deal from several teachers with the lion share coming from Tim. (but in all honesty, I don't spar hard enough nor practice regularly enough to consider myself highly skilled or expert).

I don't mind a little public bickering in the streets in a free society . I've never claimed John Painter isn't a "tough guy" (he probably is). It just bothers me when well-meaning students of his post here claiming he teaches authentic Chinese IMA... that's when I start bickering.

I absoulutely recommend watching Dr. Painter's videos, not only are they highly entertaining, but in the 3 I've seen, he manages to slip in a verbal disclaimer "these movements are not based on some ancient Chinese martial arts, rather, they are based on my own experience and understanding of body usage" (Iron Bastard- I know you would get a kick out of them)

I understand it's not politically correct to point out a successful business man's shenanigans on the internet... but sometimes, I'm a rebel.
(If I put myself on the market with an invented history I'd expect to get some bickering).


Shane

Thanks for being honest Shane. I think you already know I'm not someone who concerns himself with what is or is not politically correct.