Heaven, Thunder, Fire, Water - These are all trigrams; who ever does not know this has never studied any Bagua. It's 101 basics that the chinese character used in the name of this IMA for Palm referes to "the body structure" as a whole. Why would it be so odd that one system uses these ideas when you can find sayings like "mud stepping" "chicken stepping" - I remember seeing Tim in that video. I doubt Shane ever watched a Painter video if he didn't catch that.

Yes in "real" chinese martial arts there are real wacky names for all kinds of things, "monkey offers peach" "white ape stepping." so I doubt that Shane could ever cite where in "real" chineses MA, that using the actual trigrams' names to describe postures is not "real."

Interal martial arts is about using your mind, that's the YI Shane it's the only way to get whole body movement - I'm sure Tim's told you about it. I'm also sure that you've taken your little quote out of context - I'm sure the liberal media can use a guy like Shane. Try the NY Times.

Painter has added and changed his teacher's MA to make it better - because that is what his teacher told him to do. And it's kinda funny that if Shane did any reading he would find that most teachers are said to tell their students to do the same thing.

Can anyone imagine, "I've taught you everything I know, please do not improve on it if there is a way to do so." Isn't Tim doing the same thing, or is the stuff Tim learned just not good enough so he's got to take BJJ; I doubt it.

It's real simple, these guys don't need to fly to Texas, they can walk across their own street, basically, and go talk to John Adams at the Interal Arts Center in Venice. internalartscenter.com

But I doubt they would ever do this and I'm sure they will continue with their rants because its easier. However, many peeps looking in will consider their actions as a reflection on Tim AND maybe Tim's students should consider that as well, themselfs. I fear, additionally, that Tim may have made an off hand comment that Shane, Meynard and others took as license to post their comments - hopefully not.

As far as real world training goes, any one can contact Rick Krausman of the Richland County Sheriff's Office in Mansfield Ohio, rkrausman@RCSOnet.net, and ask how effective Painter's training has been. That office now teaches PKC techniques to all their officers because it works, these are some of the same ones shown on the tapes that Shane scoffs at; Painter developed the techniques from what he learned from his teacher and what he discoverd himself. These techniques derive their power from IMA but they certainly wouldn't have been seen, as they are taught today, in ancient China. Master Jou Tsung Hwa of the Tai Chi farm saw and recognized Painter's abilities and that's why Painter was asked to teach at the Tai Chi Farm every year.

That police department is also gaining state wide recognition because they win the competitions they attend. here is an article about their training: http://www.centralohio.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/B7/20050528/NEWS01/5052803 14/1002&template=B7&template=printart&template=printart

There's my cite to some "real" information. So let "me" extrapolate: John Painter's IMA is helping save officer's lives and the lives of the people they may have to arrest. That fact alone probably bothers Shane. How many of the "bazillion" IMA teachers which can be found in the U.S. today are out doing good things of this magnitude to help people, let alone teaching real chinese internal martial arts.

RFB

RFB

Only what I do is a reflection on me.

My students have their own opinions, and they are welcome to voice them here, just like you.

I've been reading a lot about the ancient spartans lately. They were known for being...LACONIC...(this word is derived from "Lakonia", the area of greece where the spartans lived). Tim is very...LACONIC...we, too, should follow his example and strive to be....LACONIC....(the word for the day).

Tim,

I have to respectfully disagree. Whom a man associates with and actions a man will tolerate bear directly on that man's character to the world. If we don't shun hateful or hurtful actions by others especially from piers then we are complicit in their actions.

Somebody may point out that Jesus was an example of a man who assocaiated with the reched etc, however, he had a plan of salvation for those people. Maybe you have a plan of salvation for those in your crowd.

Some of your crowd have carried fun, joshing and good natured flaming over into hateful mean spirited personal attacks; and they claim you as their Sifu. Those actions, Tim, drag you right into the pot whether you like it or not. Worst of all, it stifles the free exchange of ideas and information.

In the end, however, I agree in your pointing out that it's your board and up to you to allow whomever, to expess their free opinions, what ever those opinions may be.

When's your next tournament, hopefully we can take the opportunity to change the minds of the uniformed.

via con dios

RFB

You're a Hippy aren't you?

So you think Tim should inhibit certain posters in order to foster more "free exchange of ideas and information", eh? Man, talk about double-speak!

T: Nope, I do business with lead-pipe cruelty because the Gov doesn't let me shoot guns anymore. But it doesn't mean I can't still love Jesus.

K: That would be up to Tim. I didn't suggest it directly or indirectly but it would seem he would tolerate racialy degrogatory speach if that was someone's opinion. To each his own standards.

As far as doublespeak or mealy mouth comments, I was pretty darn plain - it's the same reason the driver gets indicted when the passanger robs the quicktrip without his knowledge, So don't get all defensive on your Sifu's account because this is a free exchange of OPINIONS board, that's the rule according to Tim, correct.

RFB,

I'm planning on my next tournament early next year.

I did have my students invite John Adams to fight in my last tournament, but he chose not to participate.

John and you are welcome to come and fight in my next event.

And to clear up a couple of points. No one calls me "sifu," I have a real aversion to self-aggrandizing titles. No legitimate teacher I ever encountered in China had their students call them sifu. The proper term of respect is "laoshi," teacher. I prefer to be called "Tim," because it's my name. Racist remaks are not allowed on the board.

Kenneth,
I believe the area where the Spartans lived was called "Lacedaemon." But I agree it's a lot easier to say "laconic" than "lacedaemonic."

r.f.b I'd be verey happy if you could change the minds of the uniformed. They keep taking orders and killing people to the comands of people who should know better.

I appreciate you are a man who considers values integral to life.

is it pronounciated "lacey-demon"? Because, that reminds me of a job I had last spring, cannoeing folks 10 miles up a river in Colorado.

Britney Spears was one of my passengers... She wore a white lace maternity dress and complained LOUDLY about everything the entire trip. Man, she was one tough ho to row!

Bob#2
(not rowing you)

RFB, even though I would agree in what you are saying about Dr/ Mr/ Sifu painter, I do not agree in associating any one elses veiw with anyone but that person. Shane is entitled to his opinion, and even though I diagreed with some of his statements I found his beleifs based on his own opinions, just as myself.
John Adams is a good ma's and I am sure some of his students are as well, but someone studying with Tim hardly needs to go to John, and John's people should stay with John.
Tim allows anyone to post anything, this is just the internet, nothing else, to take it personally is a waste of time. The statements people make are people doing it on line, just the internet trash talk, nothing serious.


"When's your next tournament, hopefully we can take the opportunity to change the minds of the uniformed. "

of all the things everyone has said, perhaps this is the worst of them all and though your intentions may be honest, this is open to, too much interpretation, way too much.

Do you know who Tim is? Do you realize though Tim is perhaps the nicest person you would ever want to converse with, he is also perhaps in the top 1% of skilled martial artists and fighters there are, period? Though he will probally take this with a grain of salt and not see it as anything, someone could translate this as a challenge to Tim and his. WOWWWWW!!!!!!!!!! Putting all ego to the side, I am a practitoner of almost 30 years, numerous international and national champion winner, used the arts to save my life, and study every day, every day, studied with some great people and have a great teacher now, but I would also shine and be humbled in the oppurtunity to study with Tim, study, not challenge.

Tim, you're right, Lacedaemon, but maps show the region as Lakonia for some reason, maybe it includes conquered Helot lands, I'll find out.

BTW, are you familiar with Mike Chapman? Apparently he is not only a fan of the ancient spartans, but he is some judo/sambo/NHB guy. He wrote a novel about Achilles which I have on order from Amazon.

The expression "being laconic" is often attributed to the story of the spartan boy in training who allowed a fox that he had caught to gnaw through his body under the cape where he was hiding it rather than cry out and admit what he had done to his superiors.

The young men had to live in barracks for many years and were not given enough food on purpose. Having to scrounge for food was supposed to make them resourceful. The kid probably wanted to eat the fox, not make a pet of it as modern versions of the story have it.

I gather that the Spartans had a reputation not just for being fearsome warriors but for being dull and stupid (maybe that was why they were quiet) and very venal once they got out into the "real world" in their interminable wars with Athens and the larger Greek world.

Oh, and some of the other Greeks used to make fun of them (from a distance I would imagine) because the Spartans were apparently fond of wearing their hair really long. Ancient hippies with an attitude.

Of course, much of the few anecdotes about them that have survived were written by their enemies and recorded long after the actual events so it's hard to know where the truth lies ... Whoops, sounds like the problem in trying to sort out the truth about taiji lineage!

I believe the Spartans were relatively "uncultured" in comparison to the Athenians and citizens of other city-states. Fine arts and related pursuits that took time away from martial training and war were not allowed in Sparta.

Other Greek warriors cut their hair short so that their enemies could not grab their hair in battle. Spartans wore their hair long because they were such good fighters no one had the chance to grab their hair. Badass pretty boys.

I would like to point out that teaching law enforcement is in no way an endorsement for the efficacy of a particular teacher's material.

Put plainly, most cops have no idea what they are looking at in terms of martial arts or shooting skills. Almost anything that is different from what they normally get will look good to them.

I have trained with some very respected trainers and found some to offer ineffectual, if not downright dangerous (to the officer!) methods.

It has become increasingly popular to note that a teacher instructs military and/or law enforcement. It is becoming just as popular to note that such instruction is comprised of "principle based" concepts. These should be viewed purely as marketing tools, and they have little relevance to whether the teacher is offering something that is any good.

Just keep that in mind.

Michael, actually, Sparta was the only ancient greek polis that we know of where education was compulsory. In training, they were beaten if their verbal responses weren't short, to the point, and with some humor. It was also probably the only polis where women recieved an education as well as physical training. And though they spurned most arts, music and dance were important (both martial in nature). They were raised to respect their elders and spurn materialism and luxury (hence, the "spartan" way of life). Another story: at the theater in athens, an old man looked for a place to sit, but none of the younger athenians gave him their seat. When a group of visiting spartans all stood up simultaneously to offer him theirs, the athenians, feeling sheepish, applauded. Seeing this, the old man is reputed to have said, "Ah, I see now. All greeks know what is right, but it takes a spartan to DO what is right." The Spartans later won their 30 year war against Athens.

Grappler, I agree. I'm also suspicious of all these ex-bouncers from "the toughest bar in the world blah blah..."

Kenneth;
I also gather that once Sparta became rich through success in war; much of the old lifestyle went down the toilet ... but that's an old story in history.

A cynic might also say that they lost their preminance in Greek politcal affairs for good in the mid-4th century at the battles of Mantinea and a few years later at Leuctra because they could not adapt to the new tactics of the Theban general Epaminondas even though the latter used essentially the same strategy in the second battle that had won him the first.

It's always difficult to change, especially if you are used to winning. Doesn't matter if it is economics, martial arts or warfare; funny how basic human nature has changed very little in thousands of years.

Anyway, this isn't a history forum so I'll shut-up before I get jumped on for rambling. Forgive an old fella with a dusty degree in ancient history and archaeology ...

That's ok Michael, there is no such thing as useless knowledge.

Sparta was essentially a fascist state, i am not sure what is so admirable about Sparta. The newborns were examined by some kind of a comitee and if weak thrown from the cliff. That country was one sad place.
Arhont

just think about how wonderful this discussion board would be if we had the same screening process.

Bob#2
(examining you)