Archive through March 04, 2005

Tim's Discussion Board: Martial Artist - Miscellaneous: Hsiung Yang-ho: Archive through March 04, 2005
   By Jon Nicklin on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 03:06 pm: Edit Post

Seeing as Tim Cartmell trained in Taiwan, I figured it was worth a shot asking this question here: does anyone have any information on a man named Hsiung Yang-ho, who was apparently a disciple of Yang Shao-hou who was quite well-known in Taiwan martial arts circles. Does anyone know if his school is still extant, and if so, where it is?


   By Use a Search engine on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 04:30 pm: Edit Post

Use the Google search engine:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Hsiung+Yang-ho&btnG=Google+Search

I found lineage and everything your heart desires
except Tim's comment.


   By Jon Nicklin on Friday, February 23, 2001 - 04:04 pm: Edit Post

Errm...I actually wanted to find out how to contact living students of Hsiung Yang-ho (in Taiwan), or maybe if someone knows where (i.e what town/city) he taught. Believe me, I have tried to find out this info with Google (and other search engines) and have come up with nada. Sorry if I was unclear. :-)


   By referencelibrarian on Friday, February 23, 2001 - 07:15 pm: Edit Post

Jon:

Go to the discussion board at www.emptyflower.com. Ken Fish was mentioning something about Hsiung Yang-ho and you might find him there.


   By referencelibrarian on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 02:20 pm: Edit Post

Er, sorry, Jon . . . saw you've already made contact with Ken over on Jarek's discussion board. Hope you find someone still teaching that stuff.

BTW, there are some old black and white photos of Hsiung in postures from the Yang-style jian form in Stuart Olson's book on taiji sword (published last year). It's interesting to compare Hsiung's postures with the other oldster, Chen Wei-ming. Not that you can really judge anything from still photos.


   By Jon Nicklin on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 06:54 pm: Edit Post

Thanks referencelibrarian. Interesting reference to Stuart Olson's book on the sword - do you know if there's any information on Xiong in that book? If so, I'd have to put it on my Birthday present list this year! :-) Thanks once again.


   By referencelibrarian on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 07:17 pm: Edit Post

Yes there is . . . but I don't have it right next to me now. You'd be able to find it at one of the larger bookstore, like Borders or Barnes and Noble, the next time you're near one. it has the only pics I've seen in a book of Hsiung actually doing something martial. I don't know Olson's source for the pictures . . . you might want to look him up and e-mail a request for direct info.


   By referencelibrarian on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 07:36 pm: Edit Post

Jon:

Stuart Olson's next book (due out in July 2001) is being published by Inner Traditions International. They may have current contact information for Mr. Olson. Their number is 800/246-8648.

Steve Salkof in Pennsylvania teaches something he calls the "old Yang style" derived from Hsiung Yang Ho. He might have information (g.grashopr@verizon.net or tel. 610/623-1525).

For what it's worth, Erle Montaigue's cohorts claim to practice the old Yang style as taught by Yang Shao-hu, who supposedly only had three students, including Hsiung Yang Ho. Following is a little "history" gleaned from one of the WTBA (World Taiji Boxing Assn.) websites:

"
"The Old Yang Style of Yang Lu Chan."


Anthony R. Walmsley. Copyright August,2000.
Article in preparation



The most well known and practiced style of TaiJiQuan in the world today is the Yang school and training generally available is based on methods taught by Yang Cheng Fu from the mid 1930's onwards. A typical program in the majority of present day schools,consists of an all-slow-moving form,push hands exercises and maybe a sword or saber set. Martial arts "applications" are usually kept to a minimum or are totally absent. However,researchers are aware that Cheng Fu originally learned a form which was not all slow but contained many explosive movements.

This form he then modified at least three times,removed the Fa Jing (explosive energy),eliminated the more athletic movements and simplified many of the complex sections,leaving us with the "modern" Yang style form being propagated today. The accent in "modern" schools,is on relaxation,stress management and maintaining general good health,but these bi-products of consistant practice are not the reason for which the Yang style was invented. Before the 1930's,TaiJiQuan was taught exclusively as a martial art and without this training the art is not only incomplete but the great health benefits associated with it are difficult,if not impossible,to gain.

The original form,known as The Old Yang style,was invented by Cheng Fu's grandfather,Yang Lu Chan,the founder of the Yang school. Yang Lu Chan was renouned for his fighting ability and he taught in the royal palace in Beijing for much of his adult life. He and his two sons,Ban Hou and Chien Hou were responsible for training the Emperor's bodyguards and the princes at the court,in other words,they taught the art to professionals who were already well trained in martial arts and who's lives depended on self defence capacity. It should be underlined that there is no mention in this training of "relaxation","stress management" or the promotion of "general good health" and prior to the changes made by Yang Cheng Fu,"slow form" repetition as we see it today,was non existent.

This original system was transmitted by Yang Shao Hou, Cheng Fu's older brother. Yang Shao Hou taught not only the original form but several partner training combat sets and highly effective self defence methods.

The lineage of the original transmission is as follows: Yang Lu Chan(1799-1872) - Yang Ban Hou(1837-1892) / Yang Chien Hou (1839-1917) - Yang Shao Hou(1862-1930) / Yang Cheng Fu(1883-1936) (Old Style) (New Style)

Although it is well documented that many people studied with Yang Shao Hou for short periods of time,the original transmission was passed to three students who were: Hsiung Yang Ho(1886-1984),who wrote a book on the Old Yang Style but this has long been out of print and is no longer available. Chen Pan Ling(1900-1967),a graduate in civil engineering,held several important positions in the Chinese government. He was head of a committee under the Department of Education and Military Training which documented over fifty martial arts styles. Sadly this valuable information was lost during the Communist take over of mainland China. He moved to Taiwan and his school in Taipei taught the original Yang Style. This school has been out of operation for many years,however,a book and a set of five posters on his "synthetic" TaiJiQuan form have recently (1999) been published in America. Many of the postures in The Old Yang Style are to be found in Chen Pan Ling's form and in the Old Wu style as taught today by Wang Hao Da.

Chang Yiu Chun(1899-1987),was a cousin of Yang Shao Hou and studied with him from 1911 until Yang died in 1930. Chang left China and illegally entered Australia where Erle Montaigue met him in Sydney in the early 1980's.(For more information on Chang and his relationship with Erle,consult http:/taichiworld.com) I began studying the Old Yang Style form and its complementary self defence methods in 1988 with an instructor in Italy who had been trained by a Chinese teacher,Ho Chan and since 1991 have continued to study information made public by Erle Montaigue. Contrary to commonly held opinions,Yang Shao Hou taught only a few people,NOT because the information was "secret", "esoteric" or only for "an elite" of privilaged "diciples" but for the simple reason that the combat training was too tough. Students of TaiJiQuan should seriously consider what they are learning. If their program is the same or similar to that which I have outlined above,(an all-slow -moving form,a bit of "push hands" and maybe some static QiGong but little or no combat training)it is questionable if they are in reality learning TaiJiQuan! This conclusion is not a question of personal opinion."


   By Jon Nicklin on Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 01:05 pm: Edit Post

Wow, I come back and you've found all this great information! Thanks! :) FYI, I'm a university student in London, England, so there's not much chance of me studying with either Stuart Olson or Steve Salkof any time soon, but thanks for telling me - it's good to know how to contact them. As for Erle Montaigue - I don't know what to think about that guy. The whole "disciples of Yang Shao-ho" thing is a minefield. I think, until I learn chinese and go over to China and Taiwan myself (which could take a while :)) to find who are recorded as his _disciples_ (not just students), the less conjecture about who really studied with whom the better, as we westerners just don't have enough info to work from. Anyway, thanks once again.


   By Bob #2 on Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 01:58 pm: Edit Post

Having watched several Erle Montaigue video's and
listening to other martial artists whom I respect:
my opinion is that Erle is a complete quack.


   By daffy on Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 03:36 pm: Edit Post

Hey! Watch what you say about us ducks . . .


   By Mr.E on Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 11:48 pm: Edit Post

i agree with bob2

i've seen him in person demonstrating both Taiji and Tui Shou.

this guy hasn't spent enough time with fundamental training, under the close eye of a teacher, and it shows clearly in his form. i'm not familiar with who he claims to have learnt from. but he has certainly developed bad habits which could have been avoided if he'd concentrated on training, rather than teaching in the early days.


   By stan on Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 12:20 pm: Edit Post

Beauty in form and real life application is not so. It is rare for any master or otherwise to do form play and be in a real conflct and perform the exact movement. IMPOSSIBILITY.


   By Sum Guye on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 11:23 am: Edit Post

a rare impossibility?


   By Neil (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 09:01 am: Edit Post

Your naive comments amuse me, friends. I doubt that your collective wit comprehended the taiji of Erle Montaigue, yet you speak as though you possess knowledge and authority.


   By stan (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 03:27 pm: Edit Post

Neil,

I am truly shocked at your comments!

The taichi of Erle Montaigue is beyond reproach so why would you imagine the opposite appeared to be said. I stated no more nor less than the following "Beauty in form and real life application is not so. It is rare for any master or otherwise to do form play and be in a real conflct and perform the exact movement. IMPOSSIBILITY".

If you do know people who, where the exact form is the actual application then your skill and knowledge is far above mine. You must be commended. It is I who must apologise, so no offense taken. Just a lesson learned!!

You have true gold mine. People will be knocking down doors just to learn what you have stated as truth.

Thanks for setting me straight.


   By Sammy (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 09:29 pm: Edit Post

For all of the Erle's talk of fighting and appliations, I have yet hear of him or any of his students entering into the competitive ring.

Erle's early writings contradict what he put out since revealing his wudang secret tai chi.

His picture of his spear work has him holding it wrong.

Erle may be a nice guy but the crows have come home to roost.


   By Davis Jnr (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 09:43 pm: Edit Post

That may be the case but Erle is a pretty slippery customer. No-one has been able to quite pin him down yet.


   By silver fox (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 04:33 am: Edit Post

So who is the best Yang Style teacher to learn from in Sydney? and why?


   By Jacky (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 03:18 am: Edit Post

Paul Lam?