The historical fact about the relationship between Erle Montaigue and Chang Yiu Chun are rubbish!

For years in the early 1980s, Erle had a right hand man caled Tony ward, who was literally his "shadow" who was with him almost everyday, and Tony Ward has NEVER seen Chang Yiu Chun, much less seen Erle with Chang Yiu Chun!

Regarding the so-called Yang Lo Sim (Yang Lu Chan) original Yang style form, Erle most probably learnt it from an old book - he is very resourceful. Remember - Erle exposed his Yang Lo Sim form in about early 1983. So, he would have learnt it before 1983 - "early eigthies" was Erle's story. Tony was with him for about 3 years or so before 1983! That makes it around 1979 or 1980 onwards.

Forget the story about Erle chaffeuring Chang Yiu Chun around. Tony Ward was with Erle basically everyday. If there is any chaffeuring, it would be Tony chaffeuring Erle, and Erle chaffeuring Tony. Is Tony Ward the secret identity of Chang Yiu Chun. Tony, I believe was still teaching Tai Chi Chuan in Sydney a few years ago, under "Tai Chi Works". Contact him if you like.

Hey! be sensible. If a secretive man like Chang Yiu Chun who does not even want to teach very capable, hard training, Tai Chi masters his art, why would he teach this rough looking bearded guy he just met???? Huh???? There are hundreds of hardcore die-hard very capable Tai Chi practitioners wanting to beat their way to kneel at his feet. He did not want to teach them.

Why hasn't Erle established proof that Chang Yiu Chun was definitely in Australia in the "early eighties"? The Australian immigration and customs department are very good at catching illegal migrants - when they leave Australia. Why wasn't Chng Yiu Chun caught when he left? Assuming that he got off lightly with a hefty fine for over-staying his visa, where is the proof? There would be immigration and court records. Where are they, Erle?

People have checked Chang Yiu Chun and anybody sounding like his name in all the legal databases for the period that Chang Yiu Chun was supposed to be in Australia - bank records, electricity, gas,water, council, medicare, social security, .... etc, and there is no such person.

Ask the Chinese community in Sydney for Chang Yiu Chun, PLEASE! Nobody has ever seen him! Do you think hat Chang Yiu Chun is that stupid to come to Australia to hibernate and waste away? He would be going yum cha with other migrant Chinese! This is the final evidence against Erle's story - just ask the Chinese people in Sydney. Think about it.

Chang Yiu Chun, by Erle's admission, does not speak English. So, how is that old man going to survive in Sydney without speaking Chinese to Chinese people? But they do not even know him!!! Erle, you should do beter than that!

Don't give me that "He is always in hiding, so he does not know many Chinese people". Hey! If he is hiding so miserably, and so lonely, then, he would leave Australia as soon as possible! Many such old migrants have. Then, if they are illegal migrants, they would be caught by the immigration department, and fined by the courts. And, as mentioned, there would be a record. Just should us the records, Erle.

Erle, we are migrants too, so I know how the Department of Immigration and Customs work. Don't try to fool us.

Why hasn't Erle asked Chang Yiu Chun's family for a copy of his travel documents as proof? Even if he over-stayed and is an illegal migrant, his travel documents would still show hos entry to and exit from Australia.

Or why not ask Erle to ask Chang Yiu Chun's family to confirm that he was in Australia "in the early eighties".

Or,...... Chang Yiu Chun has taken a new disciple in Australia, which is a very rare occurrence indeed. Why doesn't he inform his other disciples, students or even family? Nobody knows .......... except Erle Montaigue.

Erle should not try to explain his claims. He should provide solid proof for his claims! That is a fair thing to expect of such outrageous claims.

I am not sticking up for Erle. I dont know the man, but I can say this, there is no way he learned Old Yang from a book.

His Old Yang form is basically the Chen Pan Ling form. I study Chen Pan Ling and I can tell you with the exception of a few moves, the form is the same.

There is only one book out on the Chen Pan Ling style and it was not published until the late 90's (I believe, books not in front of me).

If pressed hard enough, Erle will admit Chang Yiu Chun was invisible.

and does anyone really think Erle looks "rough"? He looks like an escape from an protracted Bridge tournament- who survives roasting squirrels and drinking from puddles near the tracks. (I guess you could have meant 'rough' in the stinky, toothy sense)

Bob#2

Rich,

Chen Pan Ling's book was published considerably earlier than the late 90's.

Of course the English version didn't come out until the 90's, and was based on a readily available Chinese version, written and published while CPL was alive (which possibly explains how he manages tostand up in all the pictures).

Edward

Edward,
I was not aware there was a CPL book before the Colonels. I am curious to see it. Do you know where I can obtain it.

I am always interested in documents on CPL. My teacher learned from the Colonel and the Colonel learned from Chen Pan Ling directly.

This is one of the styles I respect the most.

Any info would be great.

Hot Stick,

You may have heard about the recent case in Melbourne of the 104 year old Chinese woman who evaded immigration authorities for 10 years.

I'm at a loss as to how anyone could gain access to confidential social security records unless they were an employee of Centrelink (former Department of Social Security), and even then it's a criminal offence to 'browse' customer records.

Erle has stated that he has never had the Chinese characters for Chang Yiu-chun's name and, as he neither speaks nor reads Chinese, he had to take a stab at the Roman spelling of Chang's name.

Therefore, the correct spelling of his teacher's name could be Chang Yue-chun, Chiang Yiu-chung, Jiang Yu-chun, Zhang Yue-chun, or any other possible variation you can think of.

Anyone trying to trace Erle's teacher by searching social security, immigration, or any other type of record is, therefore, wasting their time.

Why should Erle provide proof of his claims? It's up to you to disprove them if you think they're so outrageous.

My only "claim to fame", so to speak, is that I studied under Hen-ping Chiang, or Mr. Chiang as he liked to be called by, from 1982 up until his passing in 2002. Chiang studied with Hsiung in the mid '70's. Upon his return to the USA, Chiang continued his practice. While performing his daily set in the early hours of mornings, I would often watch him practice. He "noticed" me one day and asked me if I was interested in T'ai Chi. Since I came from an external system (Tang Soo Do), T'ai Chi was something brand new for me. I began my studies with him and soon became what he termed an "indoor student". Teacher trains student, student becomes teacher is how it all developed. I do not consider myself as a Master of Hsiung style as I have only been "playing" Tai Chi for a little over 23 years. There is much to learn.

Hsiung's style of T'ai Chi, as Chiang would explain, is very similar to the more common Yang style. In fact, to the untrained eye, it is difficult (but not impossible) to tell the difference. Hsiung's hand movements, lower frame postures, foot work, etc., all have their similarities, but are different. At times, I find myself mixing the two (Yang and Hsiung) when performing the set. Hsiung's form is 111 steps and broken down into 3 sections. There is also numerous QiGong exercises, his version of the Sword, and, of course, push hands. Hsiung has written several books, all in Chinese, that are all out of print. I was fortunate to have obtained a copy of his form book from Chiang (who received it from Hsiung) and a copy of his sword book from Stuart Alve Olson. Yes, Stuart is a good friend, whose former Sifu, TT Liang, also studied under Hsiung. There is mention of Hsiung in Stuart's new book, "Steal My Art".

I noticed that there was mention of me earlier in the posts with old contact info. Please feel free to contact me via this board and I will gladly send you my updated contact information. I welcome all comments and thoughts.

Just a thought, but I had the opportunity to attend one of Earl's seminar's awhile back. I found him to be an informative individual and well versed in what he had to offer. I didn't question his knowledge or doubt his training background once. He is a unique person indeed. I don't know what all the fuss is with what he is or is not. Why waste the energy putting another down in this manner? What does it accomplish? Nothing. Focus your energy within. There are many fine instructors offering all sorts of training methods. It is up to the individual studying with that person to keep what is useful to them and to discard what is not (where have we heard that saying before....?). Makes sense? I'm not out to offend anyone on this board, so if I come across as such, I do appologize.

Hey....have a great day!!!

Stephen Salkof
Tiger Mountain Taijiquan

Tchoung Ta Tchen was also a student of Hsiung's. He learnt the Yang San Sou sets from him. Tchoung's main teaching came from Shi Tiao Mei who was a student of Tien Shao Lin who was a student of Yang Chien Huo.


Tchoung died a few years ago in Vancouver. [One of my teachers learnt from Tchoung].

I have read that TT Liang had studied with Hsiung, but had not learnt the San Sou sets, which had been "dropped" from the Yang family sets by YCF.

Personally, I can't imagine that Liang would not have learnt this material (and kept it secret). From what I've seen of Liang lineage people, I
believe they have a flavour of Hsiung (and San Sou), as well as more CMC flavour.

But who knows what really happened. Not I.

Yang Chen Fu has the San Shou (two person set) in his book.
CMC (Zheng Man-Qing) did not learn this set from YCF nor did he teach it.
His earliest student Mr. Abraham Liu (see profile) learned the two person set (san shou)from Shang Yang Ho in Taiwan.
Mr. Abraham Liu is still teaching San Shou to his students today.


This is an extreamly interesting thread. I will have to take some time to read the entire lenth of it when I have more time.
I just wanted to thank all involved in their well thought out time consuming contributions in advance.
JAMIE

I agree, Fascinating Page. From My own experience in meeting many frauds of Martial arts etc. I believe that Erle is not one. He encourages one to try the techniques he teaches, and to test a supposed Master by asking to be used as a target as well. I think the only guage of someone being legit is to try it on your own. Best advice I was ever given. Be Open minded to new experiences, but be honest with myself. I wish there was a legit Internal Arts Teacher on Long Island New York who I could learn from.
Does anyone know anything about Master Li Tai Liang?

wow... Marc 'The Opinionator' Daust hasn't commented on this thread yet.

I'm going to make myself a John Denver Omlette and a Rocky Mountain Pie!

Hello all, I studied with Erle Montaigue for some time and became a instructor in his organization
Basicly I believe Elre learnt the bulk of his Taiji from Chu King Hung (Student of Yang Sau Chung) in the early 80's in London were he was living at the time. He then trained very hard with some pals back in Oz, most of whom he has fallen out with now.
Chang Yiu Chun was a real person and a student of Chen Pan Ling. Chang was based in Taiwan and also spent time in Japan. It should be noted that Erle claims that this Chang is not his Chang, however the large San Sau which Erle claims to be fairly exclusive to his Chang was practiced and taught by this other Chang and their Taiji Long for is very similar as well.
One of the other Chang Yiu Chuns students in Japan was Marnix Wells, author of Scholar Boxer and Bruce Frantiz also claims to have meet him.
Further there is a chap in london who practices Chen Pan Ling Taiji who he learnt from an imigrant Chinese during the late 70's and early 80's whose form is pretty much identical to what Erle teachers as the Old Yang Style.

AHAH!
how long you think it would last bob?
i really don't have anything to say i just reply
because of you.
i tried to read it ,but there was too many chinese names.i lose intrest when i see too many chinese names!
i just don't beleive in chinese anymore!
too many legends and myths!!?
the last guy "visiting";blah,blah,zzzzzzzz,blah!!

The comments by Just Visiting above require some correction:
1. By his own account, Erle studied with Chu King Hung in London for 4 years from about 1975 to 1979. Erle had returned to Australia by 1979/1980.
2. When Just Visiting states that "Chang Yiu Chun was a real person and a student of Chen Pan Ling" he/she actually means Wang Shu Chin. It was Wang Shu Chin who spread Chen Pan Ling's Tai Chi in Japan. Marnix Wells was a student of Wang Shu Chin.
3. The other Chang Yiu-chun (Erle's supposed teacher) never existed. The character of Chang Yiu-chun was created by Erle to lend credibility to his made-up Old Yang form, and self-taught Dim Mak. That is the real reason why neither Erle's student Tony Ward nor anyone else in Sydney ever laid eyes upon Chang Yiu-chun.
4. It's not surprising that Erle's form might closely resemble the Chen Pan Ling form since Erle's form is largely based upon it. Whether Erle learnt the form in London from that immigrant Chinese or not I don't know. I prefer to think that Erle learnt the form from a book.

Otherwise, Just Visiting's comments are quite accurate. Chu King Hung was probably Erle's only real teacher. By the mid 1980's Erle had largely discarded most of what he had learnt from Chu King Hung as being unrealistic and ineffective for real self-defence. Most of what Erle teaches is the result of Erle's own ingenuity, not some closely guarded secrets revealed only to Erle by a mysterious old master.

I have seen on video the Chen Pan-ling form done both competently and incompetently by supposed Chinese experts and have seen Erle doing his old Yang form in person many times since 1990. His form only superficially resembles the Chen Pan-ling set and is longer.

His marketing eccentricities aside, Erle is an excellent teacher -- if somewhat unorthodox -- and an experienced and well-rounded martial artist.

I think that unless you are a tai chi history historian and even then its only hear say,then that any one is saying is; I heard or someone said. sorry I lost interest when you all started quoting a Chinese Takeaway menu.
I've met the Guy I've trained with the Guy all he's trying to do is say it like it is.

I practice Erle's system of taiji and bagua, have been practicing for about 14yrs now. I am totally not interested in discussing the legitimacy of Erle's claims. I am however interested to learn of other forms and practices that perhaps resemble what Erle teaches, such as Chen Pan Ling's form, so as to broaden my own perspective, if people would be kind enough to share. In particular, I would be interested to know of things that can be purchased - books, videos etc. My email address is: aaronc@iprimus.com.au. Thanks.

I've compared the San Shou I learnt (from Peter Yu, who learnt it from Tchoung Ta Chen around the early 70s) with someone who learnt it from Tchoung in the 90s. The sequences were the same, but stances and heights were a bit different for some moves.

I have also compared it with someone who learnt Erle's San Shou, and that was superficially similar, with some sections of steps the same, then mixed up again. The hand techniques were a fair bit different, with the Erle version being more linear and "pokey" it seemed.

I emailed Erle about this (I've only met him once, briefly), and he said there were actually two San Shou, with one being more rounded, and one being more aggressive... Every time I've emailed Erle I've received a direct and informative answer.

[From my memory, so maybe some comments are a bit dodgy]: Peter Yu said at some stage that there were three versions coming initially from the Yang family. The first didn't have much stepping and turning, and was more of a neutralisation applications form going beyond Da Lu + Tui Shou. The second was more elaborate in techniques with more elaborate attacks and strikes. The third had a lot of stepping and turning (which is what he learnt from Tchoung). He said the first two versions were found in China (the first was Beijing, the latter found more south). The third was from Taiwan, so presumably Hsiung's contribution was the stepping and turning/evading.

Most claims put Hsiung's connection to Yang Shou Ho. At a meeting with me, James Fu (Fu Chong Wen's grandson) told me that YCF had dropped the San Shou forms from the system. A few years before that my wife and I demonstrated the San Shou (joined) for Fu Chong Wen, and he actually smiled, clapped and nodded (but I couldn't interpret whether this was some kind of affirmation, or politeness). However, one of the other guys demonstrated a Chen form, and Fu's face was not smiling.


Final Note: I heard from someone in Tang Soo Do a long time ago about Hwang Kee's "tai chi" form at the top of Tang Soo Do's forms hierarchy. This was a claim that Hwang Kee learnt this form from Yang Sau Chung when they both worked at a railway station in Northern China, and that the form was part A of San Shou. The form is in Tang Soo Do's famous blue book (published in early 60s, only in Korean and very rare). I have not seen the blue book, so I can't compare. I'm interested to see it or hear about that form. The form is no longer in TSD.

T.

Tomasso,

Do you think practicing the San Shou form is useful for preparing for a real fight?

Elliot asked:

"Tomasso,

Do you think practicing the San Shou form is useful for preparing for a real fight?

Elliot"

Depends what you mean by a "real" fight. This could be anything from contact sparring or boxing, to being attacked by a rugby scrum, to a fight in a bar or a mugging or being a bouncer or being in a major riot or battle. So, more serious and more risky = more real.

To give an answer:

The sticking, stepping and evasion would help to get you out of some trouble, and be in a better position to land something decisive. I've played around with this at the less serious end of "real", and find it makes a difference. But plenty of styles have evasion, movement, "chance" training. The san shou way involves you being quite close, and mostly in contact, so attacks and grabs are smothered or "swallowed" rather than dodged or "blocked". The stepping (which you just "do", rather than following any sequence) takes you to safety and with an opportunity to do something.

So far so good. But are the strikes and kicks when you get to the opportunity "good enough" to win out? Some of them I am really impressed with, espec with sneaking a body punch in, or some of the elbows - ie, real damage potential. Some of the "unsettle, then throw" moves are not going to knock someone out when they hit the ground at "high speed", but while they are unsettled, you have a good opportunity to follow-up.

However the jings to make some of the techniques potent I cannot do strongly enough to put someone down. I can imagine that practicing them against a bag or a smallish tree would get them up to scratch. Ie, test the jing. Some I don't understand how they can work, others I know I can make a good impact on a bag.

Working with a rough partner would help too (and I'm practicing with one of those).

I guess the summary is: that regular san shou practice can help you get out of "fight" trouble without breaking contact/distance, and you can neutralise better (more sensibly and effectively) and put you where you can do damage, quite readily. To DO the damage, the jings need extra training.

Lastly, practicing it fast and joined, there is a good feeling of being "on top of the speed", which is good if you can end things when the chance comes.

To invert the question (and I guess it's related), would bullfighting skill help in a real fight? Of course, but you need to be able to release when you've created or found the opportunity. If not, you're playing "chicken" with a bull.

T.