Curious: how would a Chen master-level practitioner like Chen Xiaowang handle a full-force xingyiquan attack from someone of the level of Li Tai Liang?

What piqued my curiousity was rereading accounts of the twentieth-century Chen style paradigm, Chen Fa-ke. When he went to Beijing at the urging of Chen Zhaopei in 1928, Chen Fake is said to have handled all manner of challengers in establishing his kung fu credentials: the top wrestler/shuijiao guy in the capitol, a baguazhang practitioner (who is not identified as to style or experience), and other taijiquan teachers (subsequently attracting Xu Yousheng and all manner of taijiquan students). I have not seen any account of encounters between Chen Fake and top-level xingyiquan practitioners.

Feng Zhiqiang studied xingyiquan from Hu Yaozhen before going to study with Chen Fake. Hu recommended that Feng study with his good friend Chen, however, so Feng's introduction to Chen Fake was not really in the nature of a challenge. Nor have I seen any description of how good Feng was at xingyiquan when he went to study with Chen Fake.

In the book "Xing Yi Nei Gong," compiled by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell, there is an account of Wang Ji Wu answering a challenge by a Chen stylist who had won several platform matches in a row and did not like Wang coaching his friend. In this account, Wang simply seized the Chen stylist by the throat. Direct and simple, and in this instance, effective.

Any thoughts?

Most of the stories of the old masters are embellished, if not made up. I've witnessed the process myself. None of the guys you mentioned ever fight, so it's hard to make an educated guess. You can't judge an individual's potential as a fighter from watching him do a form or "push hands."

Thank you Tim.

Hmmm . . . I guess my question implied ex post facto second-hand judgment of the quality of the fighting abilities of the masters mentioned. I recognize that "you can't judge an individual's potential as a fighter from watching him do a form or 'push hands'" . . . nor, I venture to say, from watching demonstrations of applications on video or at seminars. That's obvious. My question was more directed at the kinds of techniques that a competent Chen taiji fighter might use against a full-force, projection/impact style like xingyiquan. Chen style is especially known for qinna . . . Has anyone experimented/sparred with Chen style techniques using pre-arranged xingyi attacks? I recognize that a defensive response will depend on the attacking technique encountered . . . just curious.

Tell you what. I'll study Xing Yi for six months and you study Chen taiji for six months (or vice versa) then we can spare. The only other option available is to clone Tim and have one Tim use Chen tactics and the other use Xing Yi tactics. Sound good?

Spare?

Both Tim would probably use Shen Wu. I predict a stalemate.

My prediction is Xing Yi.
It's solely based on this opinion. I believe Xing Yi "attracts" the individual that already has a martial mindset. Hey, let's face it, most fighting is won or lost with a proper mindset.

If you cloned two Tim's, one Tai Ji and one Xing Yi, the Tai Ji Tim would get beaten severly around the head and shoulders by the Xing Yi Tim. In fact, the Tai Ji Tim would look a little pudgy, kind of like a mini Yang Cheng Fu. But, the Xing Yi Tim would look like a knarly old Liang Ke Quan. OOhhh, scarey thought.

Of course, the Macaco fino would have to beat the Tai Ji Tim just to beat some kind of Tim in his lifetime...

good training,
Macaco fino

I shall call him...mini Tai Ji Tim.

I'd like two add two more items to this potboiler. The first is a clarification/reminder. The xingyi guy I posited is Li Tai Liang. Li's background includes extensive san shou competition in China, as well as coaching of their national team. His workshops apparently emphasize sparring/applications. He will frequently focus on one xingyi technique like beng quan, drill its performance, then demonstrate applications and have people do light contact application drills. I hope to attend a workshop with Li here in Seattle in August, and have been advised to bring protective gear (the usual mouthguard, cup, head gear and light gloves).

The second point is that Macaco's observation about fighting mindset is right on. The most renowned master of whatever age will not fare well in an actual fighting situation without the right concentration and fighting attitude.

Which perhaps leads to a new thread . . . do the "Big Three" internal arts of xingyiquan, taijiquan and baguazhang really differ in the type of mindset/attitude they employ in actual fighting? The stereotypes are that taijiquan fighters calmly wait for the opponent to move then "arrive first"; xingyiquan fighters think fierce bad thoughts despising the opponent and charge in at the smallest possible defensive angle; baguazhang fighters abandon their minds ;-] and flow around the attack.

But in real life fights do these arts actually adopt different mindsets? What is a "fighting" mindset anyway? Big questions, maybe too vaguely stated. But try anyways ;-] .

First off Macaco, the Tai Ji Tim would be forced to explode your liver with a burst of Chi (from a safe distance away, of course).
Secondly, Tom, I understand what you're getting at, but martial arts styles don't have mindsets, only individuals have mindsets. And the mindset is usually fixed by the time an individual is five years old. It takes extreme conditioning (like boot camp) to make any significant changes in a person's underlying mindset. Which brings us back to Macaco's point. People who have a fighting mindset (primarily determined by early childhood experiences) will naturally gravitate toward real martial arts (the one's that have students really fighting).

Don't you mean that the mini Tai Ji Tim would be forced to explode Macaco's liver w/a blast of chi?

Depending on his favorite kind of liquid refreshments, Macaco's liver may already be exploding, no qi from Tai Ji Tim required.

Speaking of Tai Ji Tim, he was telling me just the other day that:

"Belonging to the schools of the so-called "soft" martial arts, Tai Ji Quan training is designed to cultivate a relaxed, flexible and sensitive body along with a calm and focused intent. The Tai Ji Quan fighter is trained to absorb and neutralize incoming force, join with the opponent by sticking to his center, and issue force at the appropriate time and angle with the power of the entire body. By following the principle of giving up the self and following others, the Tai Ji Quan fighter is able to use an opponent's own strength against him, thereby allowing the weaker and slower to overcome the stronger and faster opponent."

I guess the term "fighting mindset" may not have been precisely and unanimously defined earlier in this discussion. But I would include the phrase "calm and focused intent" and "giving up the self and following others" from Tim's essay on taijiquan as indicative of a taijiquan fighter's mindset . . . at least in that essay.

By contrast, Xingyi Tim holds that:

"The form the body takes is an external manifestation of the internal state of mind and is the underlying premise beyind Xing Yi Quan as a method of combat."

Further: "The aggressive nature of Xing Yi Quan can be summed up in the keywords of the style: Brave, Fierce, Sudden, Wicked, Quick, Violent, First and Sharp. The study of its strategies and techniques provides a fascinating overview of the mindset of the warriors of old."

All I can say is that Xingyi Tim's sudden violence seems pretty different than the "calm, focused intent" of Taiji Tim.

I had to move like the Tasmanian Devil to catch up with Bagua Tim, but when I did he said:

"the relaxed physical and mental state of the Ba Gua Zhang fighter makes it possible for him to change and adjust as the situation demands. His movements are spontaneous and difficult to predict. Fighters of all disciplines agree that the unpredictable fighter is the hardest to beat (especially when he circles behind you!)."

Ba Gua Tim seems different in mindset than either the "calm, focused intent" of Taiji Tim and the bulldozer intensity of Xingyi Tim.

How many of you out there buy into Tim's idea that the mindset of a fighter, and hence the fighting art that person would gravitate towards, is determined by the time that person is five years old? Where does that leave the person who loves multiple arts, some of which counsel "calm, focused intent" and others of which encourage violent first strikes? They are fundamentally different mindsets. Since I practice these different arts, and mentally respond differently to them, I'm interested in whether the arts really do embrace different mindsets or whether they have certain deep common cognitive/emotional elements.

Tom,
Have you sparred with Tim? I have, and I can tell you that his external appearance is calm and relaxed, his technique is sudden and sure, and the end always seems the same... his opponent on the ground wondering how he got there! Stick with intent over mindset and you'll be on the right track.

Everytime I've sparred with Tim, I often thought to myself, "is this a technique from Xing Yi, Bagua or Tai Ji? I wonder what his mindset is...?"

I believe he just applies good sound fighting principles based on physics with a relaxed and efficient use of his body. Nothing magical. He also practices like a maniac. Now, there's an ancient secret for you. Practice efficiently and a lot. As for his mindset, I believe he takes what's available at the given time. Sometimes aggessive, sometimes not but always using efficient use of his body based on firm physic principles. If he was in a life or death situation, I'll bet he'd be pretty friggin' aggressive. In a sport competition, he'd have the luxury of 'feeling' the opponent out.

And just for the record, my liver is fine. As a Shen Wu practioner, Uncle Tim makes us all take a vow of no drinking, no smoking, no sex, no naughty words, no internet usage and no wrestling with Uncle Glen. Now, if you ask me about my hairline, well, that's another story...

good training,
Macaco fino
(founder of Giocco Stretto, the world's most deadly art of eating...)

Follow-up question, then, Bob, is what is the practical difference between "intent" and "mindset"? I don't need to spar with Tim to find out, although I'm sure it would be a mind-blowing experience. All I'm trying to get at is whether these "internal" martial arts have a common approach to fighting attitude/mindset/intent. If they don't, what are the differences, and how does it manifest itself in fighting? The ONLY reason I ask this question is that Tim, some of the "old masters", and other people write as if these arts have different mindsets. I'm guessing that Tim has the most extensive training of anyone on this board in the three "internal" Chinese martial arts. Thus it would be helpful to hear him clarify what his experiences and insights are into any differences or commonalities in the intent and mindset of these three arts are. If there are not any substantial differences in intent/mindset, Tim, then why do you and others write about the differences?

There is a similar discussion over in the "Under Pressure" thread under "Off Topic". Check it out.

Thanks for your postings, Bob and Macaco. I don't disagree with you. I can't say as I've ever felt anything resembling "calm intent" in real-life conflicts. I guess I'm kind of intrigued that a fighting art would aspire to developing "calm intent" as a state of mind in its fighters. That's why I'm interested in this thread.

Tom,
I can't answer your queries regarding these arts because I do not practice them. I practice Traditional Wing Chun, San Soo and BJJ. Wing Chun should be classed with the other three Chinese interanl arts for it is most certainly internal. When Tim and I sparred he said it was like sparring a Ba Gua practitioner with more forward energy. Someone else asked what style or styles you practice. I would be interested in the answer to this myself. It might seem to some as though your straining at a gnat, yet willing to swallow a camel. Hey Macaco you might consider adding camel to your Giocco Stretto, I hear it tastes like chicken!

Bob -
I think Tim was being nice to you so that he didn't hurt your feelings. Wing Chun is known for doing everything from rote. Wing Chun always works fine with another Wing Chun person during practice. I'm sure there was no sensitivity of Tim that you did if you blasted straight forward. I'm sure Tim caught on to the same pattern that you executed and threw you on your ass. I also question him saying it resembled Ba Gua. Hsing Yi is more like it.

First off, Tom, you caught me. In regards to the articles of mine you are quoting above, I tried to write them as "impartially" as I could. They are reflective of the "party line" generic Chinese views of how the arts are organized (including "mindset"). And for sure, threre are apparent differences in their strategies as written. I "bother to write about the difference" in an effort to present the arts the way the Chinese most often present them to the layman.
Now here is my personal experience with the Chinese teachers I trained with (and who were fighters). All of them stressed offense over defense, the most adamant was my Tai Ji Quan teacher, Lin Ah Long (who is the only Tai Ji Quan teacher I've met to date that only practiced Tai Ji Quan and could actually fight) who often stated that "the Tai Ji Quan fighter must never retreat." It almost goes without saying that my Xing Yi Quan teachers were heavy on offense. I would say that fully 90% of my Bua Gua Zhang teachers' techniques were offensive.
Basic defense should always be taught first. And only used when you have no other choice.
Finally, it is important to distinguish between a sport match and sparring and actual fighting. Sport fighters are in an environment where the element of surprise is non-existent, and variables are controlled. You may be ahead on rounds or points and choose to play defense or stall. Real physical threat in the street is entirely different. If you can't run away immediately, you need to escape as soon as you can. It is almost invariably better to be proactive than reactive, especially when trained. The sooner you can down your opponent and escape the better, hence the necessity of a fully agressive mindset (not the same as a panicky or out of control raging mindset). And if I ever am in a gunfight, I'm taking the first shot.

Dear Mr Wild Hair,
I think I made it clear in my previous post that Tim did throw me on my ass, more than once! But his comparison was to Ba Gua, if you prefer Hsing Yi, that's O.K. too. However, not all Wing Chun practitioners go straight up the middle with chain punches. I don't know any that do things from rote! As far as Tim not hurting my feelings, we have been friends for over a quarter century. I know him well enough to be sure he would be honest with me!

Bob is big, strong and fast. He's also very sensitive when applying his technique, preferring to yield and take a superior angle rather than forcing his way up the middle (just like the "Internal" styles). My comparison of Bob's skills to the Internal was not in reference to specific techniques, but rather to strategy and the level of sensitivity used in applying his own skills.