Critical Thinker,
First of all, someone (you) finally made a very valuable distinction. The benefits of practicing TJQ go far beyond fighting. And average people, with a good teacher and alot of practice can learn to defend themselves in most of the common situations they will find themselves in (you are not likely to get into a fight with an NHB champion in the street, why should they fight for free!)

When it comes to the statement about "the arrogance a grappler might project," I need to disagree. There are a$$holes in every style of martial art to be sure, but in my experience (I train with BJJ fighters, wrestlers and contact fighters every day), most of them are the nicest guys you could ever meet (off the mat or outside ring).

On the contrary, I see way more attitude in many of the "Internal" martial artists whose entire experience of real fighting is in their own fantasy world. This assumed superiority is common in many styles with students that never really fight. They talk about fighting, they sort of 'play' at fighting, they tell cool stories of how well their master/grandmaster/founder could fight, be they aren't fighting (usually because they are either (A) too deadly, or (B) too spiritual). Real fighters learn respect (no one wins every fight), and are more likely to be receptive to outside ideas that will help them train or fight better. Confidence or the serious mentality of a fighter in the ring should not be mistaken for arrogance.

Tim,
Yeah, ya got me there; I guess I have met more jerks that practice and preach internal as opposed to external.

Of course I don't include you in that category Tim.

Robert W. Smith traveled through Taiwan during the 60's. He had alifetime experience in Judo and Western boxing. For him to personally try out many skilled martial artists and then to conclude that Zheng Manqing was the best of them, is significant.

"When Cheng Manqing died fifteen years ago. I wrote "not only nobody equal, but nobody even second to him in Tai Chi. Oh yes, we have 10,000 bustling little masters whirling hither and yon, birds who disarowing learning, pretend to know everything but understand nothing. Obviously there are still excellent teachers around but they seem overwhelmed by the number of commercial operators more in tune with the dollar than the art."
-Robert W. Smith

"Diligent practise brings the skill of interpreting strengh. From this the ultimate goal is complete mastery of detecting the opponent's strengh...Coordinating the solid and empty is the key here. If that is achieved, then you can interpret strengh. After this, by studying vigorously and remembering, one can reach the stage on total reliance on mind.

From this, Liang argued persuasively that Tai Chi embraces within all the conditions of Taoist meditation. I heard that Yang Lu ch'an was once ambushed by one hundred ,and not wanting to kill any of the miscreants, he wrapped his cloak about him, submitted to the beatings, and was left for dead. The next day Yang worked as usual, but many of his attackers took to their beds as a result of injuries from beating the cloaked Yang. I scoffed at this example of the summit, but Cheng urged me not to; even he with but a part of Yang's energy had once permitted a famed Shaolin boxer to strike his relaxed arm. The boxer struck once and withdrew. When asked why, he told his friends that his entire side had been paralized on contact with Cheng's arm. Indeed, Wan Lai-sheng writes that when the arms and legs are no longer needed, when the chi holds sway, one is invulnerable to even knives and spears. This is called "Golden Bell Cover" (chin chung chao)."

Back in circulation in Taiwan, Cheng soon had a large group of students. And again he was vulnerable to challenges. Once such occured when a well known praying mantis style boxer, Liang Tzu p'eng, came from Hong Kong to Taiwan to try conclusions with the locals. He traded punches (the accepted challenge method) with a leading Pakua/Hsing i teacher, and his free punch put the local man to his knees. In turn, the local boxer did not hurt Liang with his punch, so the affair had to be adjudged in Liang's favor. Strutting out of the park where this occured, Liang asked if Taiwan had any other boxers. Someone mentioned Cheng's name, so Liang accosted Cheng at a party. Cheng resisted the challenge, saying that the place and time where inappropriate. Liang persisted until Cheng invited him to his house a day or so later. Liang came and watched Cheng's demonstration of Tai Chi dynamics. But he was not satisfied. "This is interesting", Liang said, "but what would you do if I attacked you?" Cheng replied that he would attempt to push him away. Liang, by this time convinced that the small man before him was afraid to fight, resorted that it would be well to get ready for he was about to attack.

At this point Cheng said, "Very well but if you even see my hands move I'll never call myself Cheng again" (to give up one's name is so serious that many Chinese would rather commit suacide rather than do it). Liang attacked from fifteen feet with a combined foot-fist action. Those watching did not see what happened, only the result. Liang first was on top of Cheng striking, next he was propelled backwards by an unseen force and bounced off the wall unconscious.

Those who were there will never forget it. Liang himself took it in good grace, stayed on and studied Tai Chi for a time. But before he went back to Hong Kong he returned to the park to see the man he defeated earlier. That one casually told Liang that he was getting ready to challenge Cheng Man ch'ing. Liang said, "Don't bother I already been there".

Once Cheng invited me to attack him in any way I wished. From long years of judo and boxing I thought I knew how to maintain balance. I thought. I faked high with my hands and went in low to push his midriff. But he was not there when I arrived. Holding his hands lightly on mine he avoided my attack and in the same movement I bounced off the wall. I tried repreadetly, but never once did I penetrate his posture. his feet moved very little, but the acute sensivity of his body to my touch permitted him to neutralize me and push and lead me at will. Often he drew me forward so sharply that my ear nearly gazed the ground, and then, at the last moment, he would catch me, saving me some nasty consequences. His art goes beyond technique; I have never experienced anything so relaxed and yet so frightengly efficient in my life.

Another time he invited me to attack him. I did. He dodged in, deflected, struck me lightly. He had done this before. But this time he did not stop the attack. Both hands were in my eyes, on my throatm all over my midriff and at the same time his feet peppered my legs. It was so beutifully orchestrated that I could not turn from it. I backed fanatically until I came to the wall, where, after taking his finger from my throat, he desisted. Informal and friendly it should have been, but frightening it was. Against that there is no defense. I am certain that no one has ever been struck more quickly and often in such a short span of time. Fortunetly, he put little energy into the strikes."
-Robert W. Smith

"Cheng's teacher Yang Cheng Fu, was said to be friendly- compared with his older brother Yang Shou hou. Several boxers on Taiwan told me that they had friends killed by the latter. These stories were hardly credible, but certain is that Yang Shou was a harsh teacher. However, according to Cheng, Yang Cheng Fu was not all that nice either. A big man from the North, he had an illustrious name. During training he practised the Single Whip for expansive power and play the Guitar for contractive power, holding each statically for lenghy periods. He also moved repeadetly through Step Back and Repulse the Monkey and Step Forward, Deflect Downward, Parry and Punch. But mostly he sat and seldom spoke. The students were afraid to ask him questions. Their fear may have resulted from seeing what happened to Cheng when he approached Yang for some pushing hands practise. Yang used two fingers and threw him twenty feet, knocking him out. When the memory of this faded, Cheng approached him again. This time Yang put a hand (Cheng remembers that it was as soft as cotton) on his jaw, threw him and knocked him out. These were the only times Cheng faced Yang."
-Robert W. Smith

“ ...The human body has three layers of membranes-outside the muscles, outside the tendons, and outside the bones. These membranes act like an inner tube, and t'aichi strengthens these membranes so that they become impervious to blows.”
-Cheng Manqing

“ ...There are some ignorant individuals in the world who foolishly believe they can skim off the cream of taichi and apply it to other martial arts, but they merely lack the capacity for serious study. It takes total dedication and a commitment to taichi alone to ever approach the level where your sinews harmonize with your vessels or marrow hardens your bones. Such profundities cannot be penetrated by a casual approach to taichi.”
-Cheng Manching

“ ...The only true secret in taichi is the phrase:Your mind is the commander. Your mind moves the chi and chi transports your body through an initial impetus. Your hands and feet never move independently but wait until your waist clearly receives the mental command-then they follow the waist. So when we read that in taichi the hands should not move, this includes the feet. Also, remember to move as if every part is strung together on a single thread.”
-Cheng Manqing

“ ...The most important point in t'aichi is relax. Many people can't relax, and when they meet an opponent, they become tense. A single twist and pull, and they're finished; they've closed their door to learning and have stopped progressing.”
-Cheng Manqing

“ ...My discussion on fearlessness is intended only for those willing to exert effort. First: Do not fear bitter work If you do you will never progress....Second: Do not fear losing. The fundamental principle in taichi is:“Yield to follow others.”....Third: Do not fear ferocity...When you penetrate the basic principles of taichi you possess a spirit of great fearlessness.”
-Cheng Manqing

“ ...To learn T'ai Chi Ch'uan, it is first necessary to learn to invest in loss.”
-Cheng Manqing

“ ....To invest in loss is to permit others to use force to attack while you don't use even the slightest force to defend yourself.”
-Cheng Manqing

Um, if you are pitting Cheng Manqing, or Robert Smith against Rickson Gracie, I'll have to put my money on Rickson. Yang Shou Yu might be a different story, but that was then and this is now...

More cool stories.

Okay, here's my version of a cool story... but seriously folks, I agree with Tim about the degree to which many IMA, particularly Tai Chi "players" delude themselves. Consider how many people think they will eventually attain the kind of martial power the masters in those"cool stories" demonstrated. They somehow convince themselves they will reach such an exalted state just by doing their forms, a little Zhan Zhaung, and maybe some mishmash of Chi Gungs for all of an hour or two per day. You gotta be kiddin' me! They need to pay more attention to some of the other, less "cool stories". You know, the ones that talk about the training that Yang Lu Chan put his boys through being so tough that one was ready to commit suicide to escape it, or even some of Wu Tu-Nan's tales of Yang Shou Yu making Tu-Nan practice under a tall table for hours on end, to the point of not being able to stand afterwards. Or they might even pay attention to some of details regarding basic training in the Zhabao style that Tim knows; if the basic exercises for that style are so tough that most people cannot do them, what does that imply about the training in other styles of real Tai Chi Chuan? That, IMHO, is how the Masters in those "cool stories" came have the skill and ability that made them famous: along with a healthy dose of raw talent, enduring through training so grueling it would kill most people.

You really are a critical thinker!

Ok Critical Thinker the ancients were tough but they were not gods like you think. The ancients might have known the true secrets of their art but still im sure that if we pit a master of the past with some expert fighter from today with complete military and scientific knowledge in combat the new guy would win. The ancients cant summon fire balls or do teleport kicks and besides we people of today have more knowledge on fitness, training, preservation, nutrition and more.

Brolly,
I don't think they were Gods, and I am sure that their reputations have become overblown with the passage of time. I agree that people now days have a more extensive knowledge of fighting techniques; albeit, people now days- even those that train their arses off- are soft and weak compared to people of even a 100 years ago. The difference is in the nature of daily life: for most people living 100 years ago, the rigors of daily life exceded the demands of todays elite athletic training. Imagine how tough someone was who added an intense training regime to that rigorous lifestyle! And no, I don't think the constant improvement in athletic performance in modern times means people are getting tougher or stronger, rather I think it is more related to more intelligent training and psychological factors ie- knowing that someone broke the 4 minute mile, you set your sites on breaking the 3 minute mile.

I love these stories...

I bet Paul Bunyan was a pretty big man too. Maybe even had an ox or bull for a pet.

Look at what the man is now!

Ah, spoken like a true child of our soft,decadent, machine dependent society.

To a certain degree I have to agree with Critical Thinker. My Grandfather, born in 1900, was a tough old bird right up until the time of his death. His toughness was not the result of working out but of a hard life.
Science, especially physics is just starting to realize that Buddha and the old Taoists may have known a thing or two.
There is much to be said for getting off the couch, hell, leaving it entirely and making demands of yourself.
Even a person who trains 4 to 5 hours a day is not living the same type of lifestyle as 100 years ago. Just because we are healthier and live longer does not make us tougher.
James Brown (Football) once said that the person he would least like to face in a fight was Charles Bronson. Mr. Brown figured he could knock Bronson down all day long, the problem was that he would keep getting up.
Toughness, in a real encounter, has to be fiqured in to the equation.
My money is on the tough old bird any day.

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Tim,
You dont think some teachers/masters are too dangerous to spar with etc.

Of course not. The higher the persons' level, the more control they should have.

I think it's far more dangerous sparring with beginners.

I've found that any "master" that tells you he is too deadly or dangerous to spar with, invariably has little or no real fighting ability.