I know Master Splinter is a cartoon character. I was joking too.

To Anon (above),
I figured you were kidding, but I wasn't certain if all readers of these post would be familiar with "Master Splinter." I could imagine prospective students seeking out a "Master Splinter" & even future con-men claiming lineage from "Master Splinter." Ignorance plays a big part in our wide, wide world of martial arts (& martial cons). {)

To Beth S.,
You wrote a very well written ammendment above. I like your posts. You seem quite astute (& Tim's probably going to kick my "astute" for using such words on his discussion board). {)

FOR THE RECORD:
Since I brought up the subject of con-men in my last post (directly above), & since the subject was previously brought up I believe that this post is now timely:
Anonymous of Wednesday, July 05, 2000 - 12:13 am wrote (to someone):

"Why do you think, that Mr Painter is a fraud? What kind of background check have you done?"

I don't know the answers concerning the questioned party, but I can give you my reasoning for why I believe that Dr. John Painter is a fraud:
-1- Dr. Painter hasn't (to my knowledge) produced any photograph of him with his mysterious instructor; but that's not enough for me to doubt as I have absolutely no pictures of me with any of my instructors; but it's cause to doubt when combined with all below:
-2- A ba-gua instructor once told me that he & the publisher of the "Pa-Kua Chang Journal" recieved phone calls in which they were questioned about ba-gua (pa-kua). Shortly thereafter their very words showed up in a martial-arts magazine as quotes from Dr. Painter's mysterious instructor!
-3- Even if you dismiss the above, explain Dr. Painter being a "captain" of "the American Rangers." It's not a captain in the US Army Rangers, he's not a US National Park Ranger, or a US Forestry Service Ranger; he's not even a Texas Ranger. What other "Rangers" are there (I'm not talking Boy-Scout-like groups either; I'm talking law-enforcement or military)? Look at his "uniform" -- it's truly UNIform in that it's UNIque: he's a captain in an organization in which he's either the only one, or else it's an organization of his own creation (er, both). Show me another "American Ranger." Where are they? What do they do? Look closely at Dr. Painter in his "uniform" as he calls himself a captain in the American Rangers and ask yourself if this isn't a fraud you're looking at & listening to. Now this alone is enough for my radar to start blipping "FRAUD." Combined with the two reasons above I am totally convinced that Dr. Painter is a con-man: A FRAUD.
I don't feel a need to do any other "research." I've been around real law enforcement/military types* & have even worked along side some** enough to contrast them with Dr. Painter & see Painter as a con-man: A FRAUD. It's possible that he may be a "security guard" & a "martial-arts" instructor -- after all this con-man is so famous by now all kinds of people probably want his "expertise."

* = Inglewood Police Dept., Inglewood, Calif. & US National Park Service Rangers (growing up as a kid in a family with a law-enforcemnt background who spent many summers in Yosemite Nat'l. Park); & I've known some former US Army Rangers (from & since my USMC days)

** = U.S. Secret Service, WashDC Police, US National Park Service, US State Dept., & all other branches of the US military (as a US Marine: and if any of you feel a need to "check my background," then write a postcard to the White House; ask "What's a PSB?" & "Who was awarded PSB #7147?" That should be enough to convince you that I'm not "pulling people's legs" like Dr. Painter is)

Beth, you rock.

Mike Taylor, now that you've enlightened the non-teenage mutant ninja turtle fans as to who Master Splinter is...can someone give us quasi-martial arts aficionados a BRIEF description of who 'Kumar' and 'Vince Black' are. I may have missed
it in the volumes of text past- but before these recent posts I don't think I've heard those names before. I don't know who those guys are, or what they're reputations are.

Sum Guye -
Try a search engine. This is the easiest way to find out any type of information. Do you know how to use search engines? Now we will receive pages of bio's that the rest of us took time to research and already know.

A Lurker,

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, I know how to use search engines. Fortunately (for my bank account and sanity) I'm far too busy to research what you goobs are arguing about. It seemed like a good opportunity for someone to regale us with their knowledge to strengthen the bicker-posts and even inspire more postings.

Don't get your panties in a bunch... it simply struck me as logical after reading an explanation of Master Splinter.

Sum Guye -

I'm actually lost on all the acronyms that you can't look up.

P.S. Thanks for the straight answer. I'll leave you alone from now on. I'll just Lurk in silence. Good-bye

I can not add anything concerning Dr. Painter or anyone else mentioned but I can tell you there is the army's highly elite 75th Infranty "Rangers" which Dr. Painter may have been referring to.

To Anon. of 10Oct00 - 0209,
I'm familiar with the US Army's Rangers -- they wear US Army uniforms. I don't have the means to give you a visual on this one; nevertheless, Dr. Painter appears in a unique "uniform" in the introduction phase of at least one of his videos (from Unique Publications if I recall properly) -- it isn't US Army (or US anything!). So I stick to my reasoning above concerning Mr. Painter.
Military units (& especially infantry units) are cannon fodder. Elite units are highly-trained cannon fodder. Military duty is downright dangerous & is nothing like most of the recruiting commercials I've seen in the last twenty or so years. I offer this as a self-defense tip.
You can become an excellent fighter without ever being in the military. Luo De Xiu & Tim Cartmell both started martial-arts training as children. Tim isn't ex-military. Mohammed Ali (ol' Casius Clay -- sp?) was an excellent boxer without military service. I know one non-military martial-arts instructor who knows more about weaponscraft than most servicemen or policemen (he applied the principles of his art to firearms discipline). As fighters these guys rock! {)

Is Dr. Painter´s Ba Gua good or bad? Is his principles of combat true or false?
I know, that there is some tape by Luo De Xiu called "Principles of Baguazhang fighting". Is it good for learning about Bagua fighting?
Thank you.

I can't comment on Dr. Painter. I'd never heard of him before these recent posts. I can say that
Luo is the real deal, and the Principles of Bagua fighting is probobly the best tape on the market regarding BaGua.

Here you go. Read about the style of Ba Gua that John Painter supposedly inherited and see if he sounds credible to you.

A BIOGRAPHY OF THE JIULONG BAGUAZHANG SHIRFU
JOHN P. PAINTER Ph.D. N.D.

Nine Dragon Baguazhang

I know Jiulong pages and once I saw Dr. Painter´s tapes. I am asking if there is someone who have experience of Jiulong Bagua in street fight. If it really works for you...

Thanks for the links--It's worth it to go to the biography page for the pictures alone. It also answers 2 questions:

1. Q: What Rangers unit is he always talking about?
A: "Dr. Painter began the American Rangers Law Enforcement Martial Training Institute." It doesn't mentioned whether he designed the uniform himself or not. He's also an "honorary" Texas Ranger (like Chuck Norris?).

2. Q: How many marketing buzzwords can you fit into one name?
A: "Wholistic Fitness Center Tao Ch'i Life Sciences Institute."

To Whoever's Interested In This Bandini, Sacked,
(BS), & ESPECIALLY TO LEOS & K. CHOW,
If Mr. Painter BEGAN (founded) an organization in which he is a "captain" of, & wears a "uniform," then such "uniform," if not actually designed by him would almost certainly be the one approved (commissed to be made) by him.
My dad, California born & raised, was only a buck sergeant in the US Marines (during Korean, United-Nations'"police action," er, War), & a lowly police officer (later a detective) yet he's an honorary lieutenant-colonel in the Alabama National Guard due to his "good ol' boy" philosophy & his skills with things that go ka-boom! So what! Most "honoraries" that I've come across are primarily given to famous (or infamous) people to help bring attention to the giving organization; however, some are truly "earned." Note that Mr. Painter is made famous by way of his forum: magazine articles & videos (both things anyone can do); note that he "suppossedly" supports law-enforcement types (by implication of his founding the above-mentioned organization). Note that some of his ("his teacher's" principles are what real practitioners told him about in phone conversation (their words being credited as "his teacher's" words). DO THE MATH!
Even a charlatan, once famous, will have good advice come his way on occassion & would have plenty of time to practice & figure out mechanical advantages on the bodies of all those who flock to him due to his celebrity status. Given time such a fraud may become legitimate -- but do you want to take that chance (in the meantime) as a student? BUYER BEWARE!
On the other hand, I'm in agreement with "Sum Guye:" Mr. Luo's Ba-Gua video is good for being introduced to a (known-to-be-good) style of Ba-Gua (of which there are many -- read Tim's intro. to Ba-Gua Zhang linked at shenwu.com home page). Some drills & exercises are included on the tape. Very worthwhile.
Concerning "buzzwords:" ah, yes, marketing. And "Wholistic...Institute" beats Painter's "American...Institute" by one! Surely they are more masterful than Painter! (:-/

Mike,

I'm sorry, it's hard to have sarcasm come through in a typed message. I was undercutting Painter, not supporting him (I hoped). And I didn't make up the name "Wholistic...Institute"--that's straight out of that biography page of his. Amazing, huh? I don't trust it when people plug themselves like that. I don't know Tim or Master Luo, but it seems from this discussion board and other places that their students do all the praising, not those men themselves. When the self-promoters get so rich, it makes me lose my faith in the intelligence of the general population. Someone in that earlier long discussion string said that Master Park doesn't get a lot of people at his seminars, although it seems that he's pretty respected. I can't remember who said that no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the public (it was a movie producer). Maybe they were right.??

That sounds pretty accurate. Just watch Jay Leno do his "Jay Walking" that will settle any questions about the intelligence of the public in general.

I checked out Dr. Painter's web site....
my sides still hurt from laughing. Hell, even if it is all true- the picture of him in the 'ranger' uniform with the beret, standing in a quasi-bagua stance with his feet crossed was enough to make me question his credibility.

Now I want to watch one of his video's to get a better laugh... but I ain't paying for one.

Sorry K.Chow if I came across in an inappropriate manner to your post on the (now) Luo/Park/Painter discussion board. It seems that if I had first visited Painter's site, then I would have caught your sarcasm; I still haven't looked at it. I've seen enough already to have reached my conclusion of FRAUDIUS MAXIMUS AMERICANUS. Also, right now I'm suffering a bit from a breathing problem & laughter quickly turns into a coughing fit (so I'm not certain that I could currently survive reading so much Bandini judging from the above responses; it looks like I'd have to be some kinda zen master or stoic not to laugh -- & therefore cough).

I find it very embarassing how people on this forum are judging about others who they have never met, just from looking at a picture or two.

###
Luo is the real deal, and the Principles of Bagua fighting is probobly the best tape on the market regarding BaGua.
###

How many tapes about bagua are you knowing?

Regards
Volker