Volker,

you find it embarrassing to read something on a discussion board? Really? Get a life. "Judging people who they have never met".... I never met Hitler, and I think he was pretty bad. I never met Ghandi, but in my opinion, he was A-OK. I never met Elvis but I'd like to have partied with him. I've never hung out with Louis Farakan but I don't think I'd enjoy it.

If you posted a web site detailing your sickly childhood and how some ancient master took you under his wing and thought you a secret martial art- and included a picture of yourself standing in a weak stance with your feet crossed- looking like Dabney Coleman in a parking guard's uniform- THAT WOULD BE EMBARRASSING.

all I said was that the site and the stance make me "question his credibility". I'd very much like to see him in person or on video to get a better idea of what he does... he may be great, or he may be a fake.... but that website and photo ARE comically lame.

which brings me to another part of your concern:
"Luo is the real deal" I met Luo, I worked out under Luo, I felt Luo demonstrate dropping the weight of his arm across mine... I watched Luo's controlled ferocity demonstrating techniques on Tim... I witnessed Luo being the real deal.

As far as how many bagua tapes "I are knowing"...
ya caught me. I aren't knowing very many. I are
going by what Tim told me. I have seen the tapes of Luo- the footage and techniques are unquestionably superb. You're right, I should claim Luo's tapes are the best on the market without first viewing all the other tapes on the market (which is why my statement was "...PROBABLY the best..."

If I ever meet Dr Painter OR Master Park I'll have to feel their power (just like I did with Tim) before I really think they're for real.
I'm not knocking anyone, just commenting on a funny website and silly picture of what SEEMS to be a self aggrandizing wannabe... in my opinion.

I hope that didn't embarrass you.

I would like to add this statement directly from John Painter's website:

John P. Painter 1945 - Created Dragon Dancing from Li, Ching-yuen's Quan Yin Palm Baguazhang. Developed PKC (Physical Knowledge Control) Martial Art.

I wouldn't trust anybody that would come up with their own style of fighting with out a proven track record as a fighter.

I also come from a family that contains 3 PhDs. This is a personal statement that I have discussed with my family. If you have a Phd. that is how you show your credentials. An unwritten rule is that medical doctors only put Dr. in front of their names unless they are trying to inflate their status. This includes Chiropractors, which are D.C. after the name.

To V.K.,
BUYER BEWARE! Marketing doesn't necessarily involve truth.
Also, there's a fine line (& a difference) between judging someone & being discerning. And you're right, I shouldn't judge him. So I ammend my statement to read: I've discerned that PAINTER USES FRAUD TO MARKET HIS "GOODS."
Now it's not a judgement (it's like the difference between calling someone "Stupid!" and saying that someone "did something stupid". Thanks for the correction.

If someone broadly publishes a completely boastful statement about himself, he invites whatever comments he gets, whether the critics have met him or not.

If I insulted Dr. Painter because of hearsay or gossip, you'd be right, Volker. But I'm going only on what he himself has written and put into public space.

To Those In The Berkely (Berkley, Berkly, Bizzurkly), California Area,
I met a man named Bernie Langan who claims to be (like Tim) a student of Mr. Lo & a teacher of Ba Gua. He also has some experience with Indonesian martial arts.
You can check him out at:
bjl@stillnessinmotion.com
Anyone needing his phone number can ask Tim to e-mail me & I'll give it to him to forward to you (I don't wish to post it here as there are a few too many nuts on this discussion-board tree).

Tim,
Bernie says "Hi."

To Those Who Have Medical Problems & Are Seeking Alternative Measures Due To Lack Of Success,
There's a Buddhist-monk-trained Vietnamese gentleman who's had some success with a few cancer patients (3 in remission) -- he generally works to relieve pain & educate patients. I've seen & felt some feats of his that weren't parlor tricks (to the best of my abilities to discern such). He might be worth a try. You can find him at:
Lloyd C. Pham, B.M.D.
541 Northgate Dr.
San Jose, Ca. 95111
(again, phone number available upon request thru Tim; Professor Pham also travels to see patients)

Hi Mike

>Anyone needing his phone number can ask Tim to e-
>mail me & I'll give it to him to forward to you

I think you are making it more complicated than it is necessary. Anyone who wants his telephone number can simply look at http://www.stillnessinmotion.com. At least he makes no fuss about his number. Btw he is also a long time student from B.K. Frantzis.

And how was your impression of Bernie?

Kind regards
Volker

P.S.: I wish everybody a happy christmas

I am very partisan in this as Bernie is my Bagua (and now Silat) brother. Bernies skill and understanding are very high and he would be a great source for anyone in the Bay Area. He is also quite skilled in Visayan Escrima having studied for some time under Guro Sonny Umpad. Mike did you attend the Ring of Fire?

Buddy

>He is also quite skilled in Visayan Escrima
>having studied for some time under Guro Sonny
>Umpad.

Has he stoped training with him?

Kind regards
Volker

Volker,
I hadn't checked out his website; I figured that there was a chance that his number was listed; but if it wasn't, then I didn't want to be the one to publicize it in a forum where many "jokers" frequent (there's so much dribble in many of these discussion boards that I hesitate to give out phone numbers).
Bernie seems to be a friendly guy. I didn't meet him in a training atmosphere, rather I met him while at a banquet last weekend & during the course of one of the conversations I found out that he studied with Mr. Lo (or is it Luo?) -- one of Tim's instructors.

Buddy,
Yes, I met Bernie at the "Ring of Fire" banquet last Sunday eve. I went as a tag-along (as a training partner) with a friend of mine who I owed a favor (well, many favors) to; he said it would be fun (& it was; unfortunately I was so weakened by a two-month-long flu & a bad knee that I couldn't even hold a decent horse stance for a minute -- once Uncle Bill put me in one). Uncle Bill gave me a couple of specific exercises to do (as well as some general exercises) of which one does well to relieve my low-back pain [it merely involves standing in a Xing-I San-Ti & then turning the waist until in a Ba-Gua Tai-Ji ("facing the center of the Ba-Gua circle"...& then hold for awhile -- all movements being done slowly while relaxed; then twist around fully to the other side & hold; do 5 or ten times, then switch lead & repeat 5 or 10 more times; the "secret" is supposedly in the breathing (which is very deep & relaxed -- & slow)]. I haven't mastered it, but it gives relief nonetheless.
Uncle Bill was explaining the differences of Chi Gung, Nei Gung, & Ji Gung (i thimk) -- & a necessity to bring these Gungs together; I was too tired to memorize (let alone understand) exactly what he was trying to explain to me, but I think he was trying to say that I needed to practice movements that would benefit both health & martial skills in a relaxed way with proper breathing. He went on to explain that some exercises work well for some & not for others; he recommended finding as many of these type of exercises as I could & picking out the ones that make me feel good (but he didn't rule out hard work either as he recommended I do a particular squat with 50lbs. of weight as well as 15-pound-pole work; he recomended heavier pole work for my stronger, uninjured friend). This is a good time to plug Tim's soon-to-be-released-(?) book on internal power exercises.
While at the "Ring of Fire" seminars I did my best to hang close to Uncle Bill as he has had Ba-Gua, Xing-I, & Tai-Ji instruction -- & he uses it well (I wouldn't want to be his enemy).
Mr. Dan Inosanto was the honoree at the banquet, as he had just been promoted to "guru" status in Serak (Silat -- an Indonesian art -- it's good kung fu; Bernie says it fits well with Ba Gua principles). Mr. Inosanto studied under Victor de Thouars (Uncle Bill -- a.k.a.: Willem de Thouars -- doesn't teach Serak like his brothers do; rather he doesn't cling to a style due to a childhood experience with monkeys; he's Shaolin based with internal principles definitely added to his "monkey" mindset as near as I can tell; & he emphasizes mindset, rooting, & being "crafty" -- he also claims that he's full of B.S.).

Mike,
I was also at Ring of Fire and indeed was responsible for introducing Bernie to Bapak Victor (my silat guru). Bernie and I were students under K. Frantzis together, as well. That was the third time I've seen Uncle and am always amazed. We had Mr. Luo here in the Boston area this year and will be sponsering him this year as well.

Volker,
Bernie still studys with Sonny. Bernie showed me some vids of Sonny. He's quite impressive.
Buddy

Cool Dude!
Too bad we didn't go around & meet everyone (then I'd have a face to go with your name). I was the one that couldn't hold a proper (low) horse stance longer than about 20 secs. (Sat. a.m.) & the one who was in the second room at the banquet (not the one with Dan Inosanto & the gang) -- stuffing myself with garlic bread.
Perhaps Mr. Luo will swing by the west coast again next year, eh? I look forward to seeing him as well as Uncle Bill again.

Mike,
I was also in the second room sitting at the table with Mike Casto (big guy, big hair and beard) from Guru Ken's group. I was in black.
We just got an email from Luo and he said he would finalize this years plans in a couple of months. Stay tuned to this board. I feel certain that Bernie will have him up in the Bay Area and Tim down in SoCal.
Buddy

Excellent! Thanks for the good news. I remember meeting Mike Castro (sp?) when he came in, but for the mostpart I had my back turned to your table (& the others as well; I had a good view of the coffee pots, the enterance, & the corner opposite of where you were seated). So much for arranged seating, eh? If I had known in advance that there would be some vacancies at my table, then I would have moved so as to have a better view. I had on a green, long-sleeved shirt that night (without a collar).

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone is familiar with the BaGwa of Park Bok-Nam and would like an assessment of his school based on experience and/or observation. thanks in advance for your replies.

The Park BokNam books are terrific, videos are good too. I was a little hesitant on what I saw in the videos until he demonstrated some fast elbow patterns, it established his credentials for me.

His system breaks down the essentials better then I have ever seen befor and caused me to rethink my training program.

p.s. On "Captain" Painter, he is a fraud. This was established by a single photo of him in one of the 'standing post' positions and his claim that he had spend many hours doing it. I had spend many hours in that position and recognised that his posture showed his claim to be false.

hello all,
thanks for the replies. i wasn't aware that park bok nam had his own topic area for discussion, sorry for posting in the other forum. i see that the consensus is that painter is a charlatan. i was wondering if anyone knew anything about james mcneil and his school? also, i viewed a video on bagwa recently by erle montaigue from australia. it was hilarious to watch and i was amazed that he could even pronounce bagwa! has anyone else seen this video or others by him? it's unfortunate that these so called masters cast a long shadow of doubt on the veracity of internal arts.

>i see that the consensus is that painter is a
>charlatan.

it seems to me that this consensus is only between writers on this board. All the persons here that are saying that he is a fraud have never met him. From what I read all persons that had personal experienced him do not think that he is a fraud.

His student in Los Angeles -- John Adams -- eg is open to cross hands with anybody who wants. So if you are near LA, try it out.

Who the F*#$ are you asswipe.

Are you talking for Mr. Adams, or are you 'just stating it for the record.'

If you want, I'll fight you and him. Let's go, smegma face!!!!

"There's only ONE friggin' Betty, BIG BALLED BETTY!!!"

>If you want, I'll fight you and him. Let's go,
>smegma face!!!!

I did not write anything about figthing. I wrote "cross hands", which means more or less compare skills.

hey anon

crossing hands is fighting ... training any other way is just pants.. and my money is on betty

anon no 2

Did any of Tim's cult members read the following? At least you guys are consistent in your lack of civility.

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Where's John Adams school located? Give me the address.

What's with the cross hands b.s.? Am I just suppose to stand there and let him do techniques on me or is this going to be non-cooperative. Get off your kung fu theater fantasy and say what you mean.

I'm in L.A. I'll cross hands(actual sparring, no protection) with him.

To Henry Lee You ask about Erle M. Yes, there is quite some controversy as whether he is a joker or master. I have a dozen of his videos and one of the books. A few were so-so, but many helped me a lot. When I first heard of him, my interests had been for years gradually moving from 'external' to 'internal' and I saw that he had some moves and abilities that I desired. He understood some things that I was just beginning to experience. Where he shines best is in his presentations of how to use these arts in fighting. In these arts he freely admits that his teachers set him to figure many things out for himself and is very unorthodox. There are some things where I do not agree with him but I think he is sincere and believes in what he is doing. On the other hand, Painter, I caught in a lie ( unless misrepresented in the article). I strongly recommend you check out the following authors; Massad Ayoob, Payton Quinn,and Marc McYoung. Read and see everything you can get from them. The book 'Attack Proof' has good presentations of chinese boxing concepts in simplified form. As for our host, Tim, I really don't know very much about him but it seems that he is worth further study. I am almost 48, had my first 'lessons' at 15, and began researching even before that. I have spend much time practicing things (even very basic moves) that were a waste of time and energy. I am now of the opinion that properly taught and practiced chinese internal arts are the way to go. Right now I'm not even practicing 'techniques'. My 'martial arts' workout now consists of standing, steping, and body development.(much on balance, 'rooting' and leg strength) I have noticed that my 'techniques' have continued to improve even though I'm not practicing them at this time. I am convinced that we 'threw out the baby with the bathwater' when traditional training was discarded in favor of the more 'fun' and supposedly 'practical' stuff.

If I could read I wouldn't be selling top secret TaiJi combat techniques to brittle old people and mealy-mouthed, bald cancer kids- would I, you goob.

>Where's John Adams school located?
>Give me the address.

I get the following from his web site (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~jca9dragon/index.html)

---
John’s currently teaches at Marc Parra’s House of Champions in Van Nuys and also at Gerry Blanck’s Martial Arts Center in Pacific Palisades.
---
Mark Parra's
House of Champions
17228 Saticoy (at Louise and Saticoy)
Van Nuys, CA
---

>What's with the cross hands b.s.? Am I just
>suppose to stand there and let him do techniques
>on me or is this going to be non-cooperative

As far as I understood him you can do more than just cooperative techniques. But I think a friendly sparring is far away from a "fight".

Hey Meynard,
Be careful when you 'cross hands,' 'hold hands,' 'wash hands' whatever with this guy. He migh f#$%in' explode you with a chi blast.

Either you fight or you don't. I thought this was martial arts. 'Oh, we only cross our legs and rub our chi and F*$#in' TALK about fighting.

No wonder why most kung fu guys s*ck!

Hey anon 3, you're a f*#$%in' pussy. If you think I'm one of Cartmell's cult followers, think again. Cartmell would LOVE to train with the Betty!!!

"Remember there's only ONE friggin' Betty, Big Balled Betty!"