All-

We got to talking about knife stuff at lunch on the first day of the seminar. Here are some clips of Australia's Raymond Floro, a guy I've done a little knife with.

Ray's system is very direct and simple, you learn a few basic cuts and then refine everything in sparring. All small "fist load" weapons work the same as knife - he had one student, a bouncer, wi a fight against multiples using a cell phone as a weapon.

The power in his head strike is not conveyed well in the videos - even through the hockey helmets his hits ring your bell. His theory is that the head hits are for targeting, in reality he'd strike the face and throat:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ray+floro&search=Search

His stuff is alright. That demo sets up the guy being demoed on for failure because he's told to react.

In the closed stance and empty handed the guy being demoed is at a complete disadvantage. It's very dificult to parry jabs that way especially with the 6 inch or more reach advantage of the weapon.

The guy being demoed on is being asked to parry, but who in their right mind would parry a blade with empty hands. Who in their right mind parries a weapon with empty hands. So most people being demoed on this way parries at the wrist of the attacker. That's too late and too far down the attacking arm. The guy being demoed on will always get hit.

It's a simple trick.

Oh, I realize that.

But he does the same thing sparring....

Sparring is standing in front of each other trading pakals?

The fastest pakal wins?

Why not just box and count only back hand head shots? It would be the same thing.

Why yes, Ventura, that's the whole point of sparring.

It is an attribute development exercise to build reflexes, timing, distancing, etc. In fact, Ray draws on boxing for his knife work, and his empty hand work mirrors his knife work. In this way, you practice both when you train either.

It is not meant to be indicative of a real "knife" event.

I don't think the point of sparring is trading blows with pretend knives.

It develops the wrong reflexes for "real knife" events.

However it does develop good reflexes for "play knife" events. So if you're interested in winning games and doing an end zone dance this method is the way to go.

Why would anyone draw on empty hand work for blade work? It should be the other way around.

That's just backwards thinking.

Okay, though I disagree with you on one point, we might be in agreement in other ways. I'll bite - what would you offer as a better way of knife training?

And how do you, personally, define a "real" knife event?

A real knife event is when someone is actually holding a REAL knife and with bad intention is ready to skewer or carve you like a turkey with or without you knowing it.

Everything else is play.

A better way of playing at knife is by training
1. awareness
2. attack
3. counter attacks
4. counter the counter
5. recounter

I'm no hater, and I'm sure it's fun, and even useful to train like this guy; but. You can't try and stay at range with anyone with any kind of weapon, you have to close, and control the weapon hand. In all the stuff he is doing, none of his students try to close the distance and lock down the weapon. A guy with a weapon has a major advantage, so yes, he's much quicker then them, and more effective when he makes contact.

Secondly, in the sword game they played, his student would have killed him many times over. Frankly I think the kid he was sparring with was better then he is, and I don't know what this was suppose to show. 3 Times in a row Floro recived wrist strikes unanswerd. With a stick that is a serious threat, with a sword that's the end of your days. His leg was also chopped off many times, and he just kept trying for head shots. With a weapon you don't have to go for head or body shots, a broken or missing (Hell even heavy bleeding) arm or leg will likely end a fight just as well.

I wouldn't train like this on a regular basis.

alternatively, in training rather than using a real knife, just use something that hurts a lot when you get struck. You can try with those large lit incense sticks, or just normal sticks that have a burning end. Or with large non-liy blunt sticks, just make sure that you intend to hurt your training partner. Train so that onlt that attacker has the stick (arnis size). It leaves a nasty bruise when you get wacked good, and is perhaps an adequate substitution for a real knife - though I'm not so sure on this last point.

(We need a rolleyes smiley on this thread!)

What is shown is knife on knife S-P-A-R-R-I-N-G. Its not knife defense, in which I totally agree with Chris.

(BTW, I also don't like the sword clip - the student is Michael Jen.)

But I think you are missing the point (doh!) . Knife on knife "dueling" is very rare indeed, it is not and should not be the totality of training.

In using it appropriately to DEVELOP ATTRIBUTES, it is an excellent way to train the very things Ventura describes.

Other than providing generic terminology - I'd again ask for an example of a training system that Ventura feels does this better - I for one am always on the lookout for better training methods, I might like what you have to offer!

Through sparring you are also training a keener sense of distance awareness and angles under dynamic conditions (i.e. not prearranged or cooperative drilling) that is critical during real knife incidents.

Think of it this way: Judo or BJJ randori or MMA are the exact same thing in terms of application to real fighting. They are symmetrical, unarmed "dueling," which is not at all reflective of reality.

I have never been in a fight in my life that looked like randori or rolling or MMA. T

Every fight I have been in has drawn on the attributes and skills honed in that very training.

With the appropriate understanding of context, and experience with reality, having a solid basis in such sparring (grappling, boxing, MMA or knife sparring...) will place you far, far ahead of the game when it actually is real.

But since we apparently aren't making that connection, let's change focus: real knife applications.

Awareness is of course paramount, as it is with everything else in self defense.

It is also notoriously unreliable outside the dojo, in real knifings. I have responded to knife assaults, and know details of many others, including several recent knife murders, not only where I work (strangely we are having multiple edged weapons incidents on a weekly basis these days... dunno why) let alone in instances with the LE community and those that we all read and hear about, and that we often get more detailed accounts of through law enforcement training.

Very, very commonly, the person being cut or stabbed does not even realize it is occurring. They often report that they felt they were getting punched and simply stayed in the fight. Sometimes it was only after they saw blood, or an onlooker noticed an edged weapon, that it is realized a knife is even in play.

As well, they are primarily used in one of two ways: as last ditch weapons by the person losing the unarmed fight, or in a surprise, blitz attack - a sucker punch with a knife, as it were, set up through distraction or the use of multiples. This all occurs at very close quarters - Grab n' Stab usually, and again often under the mistaken initial impression that the encounter is unarmed.

If you *aren't* drawing on empty hand work in your knife skills, you are not preparing yourself as best as possible for real world knife events. Your empty hand and knife must be integrated and support one another. And usually that means being very comfortable grappling while controlling a limb, and striking in the clinch - which rely on the same skills in order to access your own knife in-fight, and to use it under tight conditions.

Your primary bet here is to train a non-diagnostic default response that does what it can to mitigate the knife attack - because you probably won't realize it is a knife attack. If you had, you should be out of there, not setting up that killer armlock off the thrust or drawing your own blade and squaring off for a duel.

Once contact has been made, and your default has hopefully saved you from taking a potentially lethal knife wound, you had better hope you have solid empty hand skills, because they will mean the difference between gaining control of the attacker, or gaining enough distance to either defend, access your own weapon if you can't run, or run.

If you want more reality, I highly recommend the Shivworks Reverse Edged Methods material (www.shivworks.com). Check out the DVDs, they are more than worth it and more within context. I for one train in both methodologies.

For some good knife defense work check out Jerry Wetzel's Red Zone (www.centerlinegym.com). He has cut through the theoretical BS and trains knife vs. unarmed in a force on force/sparring manner.

Like I said, I'm sure it's fun, and "even useful" to train like this. But I'm never going to fight a guy with a knife at range, I will run away if we are at range, or if I have no choice I'm going to rush him. Even if I have a knife, I'm not going to engage you at range. Knife defense is not separate from the fight. If I think someone has a weapon (and is going to use it on me), I'm going to tackle him, so I will never stand facing a guy who is going to try and quickly jab me in the face, I will be in motion. I don't think you should train yourself to stand there when there is a threat (it's not a boxing match) I think you should train yourself to move (either running away or running at) as soon as you detect a threat.

In unarmed fighting you can risk taking a few good shots to get the superior position. In unarmed fighting you can cover and take damage on a strong body part, with a weapon you don't have that luxury.

Now what you said about people not knowing the guy has a knife, I agree. But I don't think this training drill is useful for that. I have a drill where I have my students walk around the room together in all different directions. I secretly give one of them a knife, and tell him to have killer intent, but hide the knife, then I ask the students who had the knife. I was surprised that some students seem to repeatedly have the ability to "know" who it is. also it seems the group will often be more right then wrong. I have another drill where I have a student close his eyes and have others put there intent on him, then he has to try and figure out how many people and where they are are putting intent to kill on him.

The drills I described have to do with detecting who has killer intent, and may plan to do you harm. It may even lead to figuring out when someone is armed or not.

Why not just train with the mindset that everyone is armed?

Empty hand methods should be drawn from armed methods, not the other way around.

Now things are getting interesting.

Ventura - I do train with the mindset that everyone is armed. It simply does not preclude empty hand tactics, and does not mean that there aren't useful things to gain from refining things in sparring. Ray's stuff includes controlling the blade hand while keeping yours free at clinch range.

Chris - the sparring is not about identifying the armed threat. The drills you mentioned are useful, that also isn't reality where you have far more distractions, and the people who you are training with aren't friends or training partners and do not "leak" the fact they are carrying a weapon.

I think you are dead on regarding either being right on the guy or too far away. That is actually what Ray teaches.

The sparring is an entirely different thing, which I don't seem to be conveying very well in my posts.

If I sense a weapon based on body carriage, printing on clothing, unconscious weapon checks, etc. or on the person's history (an advantage I have in LE that citizen victims will not in most cases), if I gain any inkling that the person is about to go for the weapon I am in on him and seeking to control the likely weapon hand, or the spot that I suspect he is carrying. The "21 Foot Rule" applies to bad guys, too!

True, too that at this stage, knife defense is not different from the overall fight.But once again, we are not talking about a guy whose weapon is already out, or whose draw is so quick that it is out before you foul his draw.

You did give what are IMO the only two good answers - get very close or get outside his range. But knife sparring does actually help you in either instance, because it sharpens your assessment of distance and position and improves speed and timing.

In the event that the blade is already out, or comes out as you have moved in and been udnable to control the blade hand, it also trains a sense of angles of disengagement in which he might not be able to tag you on the way out.

Heck, I use some of the concepts in this kind of sparring for training to deal with a firearm that comes out and my having to "get off the X" to keep from getting shot.

I rarely knife spar - you guys are correct in that it does not reflect reality. In fact, you are probably better off training in grappling and MMA combined with weapons aware drills, than you are training much knife sparring. Which is what I do.

But you do gain something in the crossover. You have to decide how much training time you want to devote to the individual methodologies. I most certainly train far more at
"0-5 feet," fouling the draw, controlling the limb, and accessing my own weapon or disengaging at the best angle, than I would standing off and boxing a guy with or without a knife. But I have gained from doing both things.

"I will run away if we are at range, or if I have no choice I'm going to rush him."

"if I gain any inkling that the person is about to go for the weapon I am in on him and seeking to control the likely weapon hand, or the spot that I suspect he is carrying."

You guys are not the only ones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Uy59WK0bU

I like the Shivworks material a lot. I train the methodology that forms the foundation of the Shivworks material. So to me that's just an extension of what I already know. Its value comes from real world experience as it relates to the methodology.

Kit uses the words "fouling" and "0-5 feet" range. Those are in the Shivworks dvd. The 21 feet rule comes from an old law enforcement video called Surviving Edged Weapons. Just so people know where knowledge is coming from.

The gist of it is this. You're either going to be at a distance or going to be very very close if you want to survive.

Sparring as shown by Floro and the majority of drills in FMA train people to linger in the most dangerous range: the middle range. All three of us agree that you either have to be at a distance or get very, very close.

Why train in the middle range? That's the kill zone. That's my problem with Floro's method or any other FMA methods.

I'm not against sparring of any kind, but sparring must be tactically sound. It should follow principle of good strategy. There should be a methodology in sparring not just some kind of haphazard mayhem where you "try" what you learned. There are techniques involved and logical progressions that develop skill.

Range and timing are big problems to most people. Training methodology should address developing the awareness for space and time. Then we must address our relationship between objects in space and time.

In my previous post I stated awareness as the first thing to learn. I didn't mean awareness as in just who's armed or unarmed or who has psycho killer intent. Sure those are important among other things that encompasses "awareness". All would be useless in a physical confrontation without training the awareness for space, time and relationship.

Ventura

I've trained directly with Snarc and his REM stuff. There is more commonality with Ray's stuff than you might think.

Snarc is working on material "outside 5 feet" now that blends well with Ray's approach. You are mistaken re: "hanging out in middle range." You simply haven't seen enough of his material to know.

Quote:

"Range and timing are big problems to most people. Training methodology should address developing the awareness for space and time. Then we must address our relationship between objects in space and time."

Sparring in the Floro Fighting Systems does just this. We seem to be getting theoretical regarding awareness for space, time, and relationship - once again, what do you offer as a practical way of training these things?

BTW, I prefer Snarc's stuff over other knife stuff I have trained for the same reasons you do. By far I see this as the most realistic range and context for actual knife encounters

We also seem to agree regarding most FMA, so I am eager to hear what you think are practical methods for developing the awareness you are talking about.

Good discussion!

BTW folks, the Shivworks DVD producer, "Southnarc" by handle, has an excellent discussion board regarding combatives and self defense in all its aspects, with a number of very qualified professionals and instructors participating, at Total Protection Interactive.

(www.totalprotectioninteractive.com)

You have to join to get access.

I can only recommend the methods of my teachers Leo Gaje, Tim Cartmell and Don Angier.

Ventura-

Cool, we probably are in agreement in some places, and disagreement in others (I think that's clear).

I hope to see Tim's take on knife/weapon stuff some day.

BTW, Snarc from Shivworks was a Pekiti man, among other things.

To intentionally stand open handed against an edged weapon, when there is ANY other alternative (escape, better weapon), just doesn't make sense to me. If you have even the slightest suspicion there is a possibility of an armed / unarmed encounter, position yourself accordingly. Distance is life.

Sometimes, LE personnel have no choice in the matter. However, they also have guns and NL weapons they can use to diffuse, control, or end the situation before it escalates into armed hand-to-hand combat.

As far as civilians go, I can't think of very many scenarios that can't be avoided with a little common sense. Extract yourself from the situation BEFORE it becomes life-threatening. Unless you are 100% SURE your training will save you, or the situation DEMANDS your immediate involvement (life or death / serious injury for an innocent other) you'd be best served by avoiding engagement.

Is life worth a cameo spot in a bad action movie? I don't think so. There's only a handful of Level 1 Trauma Centers left here in So Cal, and they are few-and-far between...

Which is why I never go anywhere without a fannypack full of Ninja Stars.

I have to be aware of dangerous situations at all times because I need a few seconds to remove them from their ziplock baggie.

BN2,

If you place the stars in your fannypack WITHOUT the baggie, you can decrease your response time dramatically!

if you were as good as me, you would be able to use the ziplock bags as ninja stars.