What would happen if the Gracie family challenged the famous Yang family? Or if the famous Yang family challened the Gracies?

I think the same as if the Bush family challenged the Kennedy family..

We could play "Family Feud" I'd have steady work, and who knows how many wives I'd get to kiss. Survey says……………..

What a silly question. But lets apply critical reasoning skills to it. During 1800's in China there were plenty of wrestlers around; likely at least one if not more challenged or accepted challenge from Yang Lu Chan or Yang Pan hou. Ever hear of these two Yangs being defeated by anyone? Certainly if wrestler had, their school or descendants would have shouted it from the rooftops. So for Gracie to beat original Yang, either Gracie style is best damn grappling style to appear in history( bet there are a lot of Greco-Roman and Submission guys willing to debate that), or early Yang's reputation bogus.

Why can't you just find the best modern Yang style Tai Chi master (of any age)fight the best Gracie Jiu Jitsu master. I'd put my life savings on that the Jiu Jitsu guy.

I'd take that bet.

Walter My bank takes direct deposit! You might as well give me your money because the best Gracie Jiu Jitsu guy would essentially be Rickson Gracie.

If thats supposed to convince me, rest assured that it hasn't. I knew that you would point to rickson before you posted it, and while I don't know who the best Yang family fighter is, I'd still put my money there. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

So basically you're betting on a figment of your imagination tai chi master. Please explain to me how any living Yang style Tai Chi master might defeat Rickson Gracie.

I guess the original post was about some fantasy challenge. In that case your fantasy of a Yang stylist beating Rickson Gracie is entirely possible. Keep dreaming. Your Tai Chi fantasy world must be intresting.

Bullcrap! By mentioning a specific fighter, you no longer are talking about which style is best, but rather which fighter is best. I got a better idea- lets take two young men, neither with any experience, same wieght, same strength, reaction time, etc. Train each one exculsively in respective style for three years, then they fight! Then we get a little more objective result.

hey Critical Thinker,

I was going to suggest that, but I thought it was more fun to make fun of Walter. Plus it's really unrealistic to find two identical people.

It's a good idea, but where are you going to find two people that are exactly similar in every detail. Sounds like you're in a little bit of a fantasy world yourself.

Its nice to be of service ;->

Nonsense my friend, you can certainly find two people close enough in most regards. If Gracie style is "best ever", rather than merely good style marketed by some very good fighters, then how come Gracie stylists do not completely dominate all types of grappling tournaments?

Gracie family would have no chance. They have already suffered numerous defeats, and by people that (in my opinion) are not in the same league as I suspect the old school Yang family players were in. Mas Oyama had no problem with grapplers, and was known to do a bit himself, but he "had his eyes opened" by a Taiji player in Hong Kong who soundly defeated him. The old Yang players had extremely strong short power, so an attempt at grappling wouldn't be the wisest thing. Also the Gracies have been known to choose rules that favor them, and when they lose they have on occasion chosen to jump the victor on the street. Walid Ismael was jumped by two of them after defeating one of the brothers in a jiu jitsu match, and he landed unanswered elbows on the faces of both of them... witnesses report he was the victor on the street as well as in the ring.

I read that once while Yang Lu Chan was fishing, two men who knew they couldn't match him in straight on combat, tried to push him/tackle him into the river. Their bodies bounced off, as they touched him. Also Cheng Manqing states that one time while he was traveling with Yang Cheng Fu, a man running at full speed rammed into Yang, and it has no effect, and Yang was no even moved, the other man on the other hand fell backwards, got up and ran away in amazement. Also Cheng Manqing according to Robert W. Smith could not be moved by 10 man from a standing posture. How on earth will anyone especially the Gracies be even able to take these guys to the ground or tackle them? Basically that's all they know how what do is tackle or shoot on their opponents until they hit the ground. Not to mention Tai Chi has alot of grappling or is mostly grappling, and has many sweeps, turns, throws, etc.

Okay, I got a question. Lets say we take Gracie style and water it down for "health Purposes", so whats left are just some smooth solo forms, some rolling or touch drills, and almost no conditioning exercises. Then lets take Yang style and beef it back up to original practice- learning each frame with full martial intention, do all the neigong and chigong, practice all day every day including freefighting. Now have two guys practice each one( Meynard, we will give the Gracie guy a few extra pounds and inchs)for three years. Who will win?

Who else would win? That's exactly what I'm talking about. The martial art that is done for martial purposes would win.

You can write stories all about what the Yangs did in the past, but they're all dead. Let's talk about the present. No Yang stylist could handle Jiu Jitsu except if he has studied Brazilian Jiu Jitsu like Tim. Ground grappling is not a Tai Ji specialty. In a fight against Brazilian Jiu Jitsu the fight will certainly end on the ground one way or another. The Gracies have suffered their share of defeats from martial artist who studied and trained in their methods.

Have a Tai Ji expert train in BJJ and they will certainly be able to beat BJJ. Just look at Tim's BJJ tournament record.

Grappling with Tim is certainly different than grappling with other BJJ guys because of his Chinese internal martial arts background.

I never said that the Gracies are the best ever. I just said that a Yang Tai Ji guy would not win against Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I guess you guys just need to start grappling to understand what I'm talking about. You need to expand your frames of references.

Let's stick with reality here not some what if fantasy scenarios.

One important point -
For the Tai Chi guy to win, he'd actually have to fight. What Tai Chi guys in the last 40 years have been known to actually mix it up and fight?

Wait, before everyone pulls out there favorite Kung Fu urban myth, please site a Tai Chi fighter that is known for his fighting ability against other well known fighters. I don't see them in Pride or the UFC or even at my local Karate/Kung Fu tag tournament. Oh yes, but there's all those myths. Even Karate has those myths, but at least those Karate guys (inferior systems to most of you who read and pontificate on this board) actually get out there and fight.

You know what's interesting, not one of you Tai Chi enthusiasts mentioned anything about the fight clips on Tim's board from his recent tournament. Why? Because those fights didn't "look" like internal moves or those fighters clearly weren't trained in internal? Oh, I know -
It's because Tim doesn't really teach internal, right?

Which is it?

You have to practice fighting and then actually fight to be good at it. It's like any art or sport, you have to practice then be able to perform under stress. The Gracies do. This is why they are successful. Also, anyone that knows anything about fighting, knows that if you fight, regardless of how "good" you are, you can lose. If you fight enough, the odds are pretty good you're going to lose. So, get off that argument. The Gracie family has lost, as mentioned above, but at least they fight.

There's no shame in losing, only shame in deceiving yourself.

Too many people lie to themselves about martial arts. Too many people "live" through their respective style, because one guy (a long time ago or recently) is a bad a$$.

The real question is, what about you?

Shou Hou Zi
NB - I'm not dead, just in a depressive funk.

Right on!

My index finger is bony and sharp, I would let Gracie run into it during his charge, after a good booger pickin, and let him poke his eye out on it.

I can close a #3 gripper from iron mind and pinch grip 70 lbs in each hand. Whose throat or eyes would be able to handle that? Hell I could probably crush their hands or break their wrists just to play safe.