Wait a minute!!! Check out my moves in those fights. Fight #5 I clearly did a bunch of internal techniques. See all the Ba Gua wrapping and slapping to the head? See Pao Chuan to the ribs. See the Pi Chuan right on the face mask? Did I get hit once? No. You have to look closer. Play it one frame at a time. I was actually trying to set up a heng chuan throw from xing yi, a variation of brush knee twist step, or ban but I kept hitting the guy. It works better when they block.

Bob you're hilarious! lol

Mmmmuhermm, the point I was just coming to. I was under the impression that Tim's program was a lot more Xing Yi oriented than Tai Chi oriented. Not a big deal, since I don't think it would look that much different in free fighting. When I taught Tai Chi at a Tae Kwon Do Dojang, I fought several of the Black belts, on a count of my ego. The only time anyone accused me of using Tai Chi was when I lost, despite the fact that I fought the same way each time. I'm sure it looked like kickboxing with some grappling thrown in. I think most MA out there would benefit from some Tai Chi in their program, but all the Tai Chi "players" out there would benefit from some free fighting and grappling in thiers.

Meynard Are you serious?

"No Yang stylist could handle Jiu Jitsu except if he has studied Brazilian Jiu Jitsu like Tim."

Here's a heads up for ya, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu along with the Gracie dynasty was destroyed by a mere Japanese Pro-Wrestler/shootfighter by the name of Kazushi Sakuraba, he went through the top guys of the Gracie Family like nothing (besides Rickson Gracie because he dosn't want to tarnish the family name further more). Also Sakuraba made non-believers believers that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has many flaws. More often then not fighters with ametuer or freestyle wrestling in there background has a better chance of countering BJJ takedowns and sprawling BJJ fighters shoot-ins, and winning the fight overall

The whole Helio/Rickson Gracie deal was a crock those who saw it, don't believe the hype the footage they showed from the Vale Tudo Japan events sucked Rickson Gracie fought nobodies and it was a time when no one knew anything about NHB events like that. The funniest was when Rickson bragged about how he has 486 wins under his belt trying to pass it off as all full contact when only like less then 10% of that figure were legit no holds barred and the rest were sports jiu-jitsu or other sport events like judo or sambo.

The whole statement saying BJJ fighters dominating events like UFC and Pride is ridiculous really, from 1997-2000 some of the top BJJ fighters fell victim to Sakuraba in Pride and it changed everyones opinion on BJJ. 10 prominant BJJ fighters to be exact like Royce Gracie, Renzo Gracie, Ryan Gracie, Royler Gracie, Vitor Belfort, Anthony Macias, Ebenezer Braga, Carlos Newton, Conan Silvera. I don't know about some people but Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is played out at least Helio's side that is, Royce refuses to grow with the times and still thinks it's the early 90's and stuck where he's at, the BJJ community considers him only in the blue belt class now, and if people think he's all that the last time I saw Royce Trying to prove himself in a full Sport Jiu-Jitsu tournament, he was out on the floor unconcious after Wallid Ismail choked him out.

Rickson and Sakuraba would be a good fight if Rickson ever gets the balls to fight someone that high of calibre. Rickson fights nobodies and washed up fighters only. Sakuraba challenged him so many times, Rickson makes excuses why not to fight him, Sakuraba earned his shot to fight him back in '99 when he beat the crap out of his brother Royler Gracie but it seems Rickson left his brother Royce to be the fall guy and the rest of his family, Rickson is nothing and Sakuraba would own him, Rickson punches like a girl and his takedowns are weak he had a hard time taking down Masa Funaki and Funaki was past his prime, little Yuki Nakai gave him more competition then most people who fought him has, Nobody can touch Sakuraba's single leg takedown, don't believe watch Sakuraba fight against Igor Vovchanchyn, he took him down so many times.

Sakuraba doesn't do Tai Chi! Moron! The thread is about Yang style vs. Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

Ya know what the problem is with discussion boards? To Goddamn much TALK!

You stated "The Gracies have suffered their share of defeats from martial artist who studied and trained in their methods." So I refuted your claim. BTW, I don't think all Yang family memebrs are dead and gone now. But I need clarification ont his.

How did you refute anything? Are you saying that the Sakuraba didn't look at the Gracie method to figure out how to beat it? Do you even grapple or train in Jiu Jitsu? Maybe you need stop watching videos and get on the mat to understand what it is to really do jiu jitsu.

You must be a complete moron because I was talking about the old Yang guys who had reputation as being fighters. All those guys are gone now. What you have left are chi huggers who will never beat any member of the Gracie Family or any black belt in BJJ.

You mentioned NHB tournaments I mentioned an NHB fighter.Meynard don't change the subjet. You clearly stated "The Gracies have suffered their share of defeats from martial artist who studied and trained in their methods." And I proved you wrong because Sakuraba did not study or have any exposure to their system. Whether Sakuraba looked at Gracie tapes, and how they fight is a mute point. Because you think Gracies did not look at Sakuraba tapes and stufy how he fights before they got the crap beaten out of them? Admit you lost.

I would like to know Tim's opinion about this; as a matter of facts he is able to express a judgment since he is an int.m.arts stylist who practices bjj. I just would like to add that the Gracie family was challenged by a famous internal m.artist from Germany yrs. ago (soundly and on magazines); after checking out they refused to fight even when they were loudly offended as cowards over and over

You know, I think the real question is how come the Imperial Bodyguard exam left out the part where two guys in speedos get into a cage and try submit each other on pay per view ... I mean what were they thinking? No wonder they couldnt keep opium out of their country.

Peter Ralston- a Tai Chi guy who has fought in a full contact tournament in the last 40 years. True, the tourny was in China, but that should count, shouldn't it? And along those lines, don't quite a few Tai Chi guys fight in San Da Tournys in China? Or does the fact that all of them also practice some Xing Yi and/or Bagua render this point inadmissible in the proccedings?

Holly Crap! Sakuraba did not have any exposure to the Gracie Jiu Jitsu method? How did you prove me wrong? Did you outline Sakuraba's training methods? Did you make a list of all the techniques he knows and where and from whom he learned it from since he started doing mixed martial arts competition? Do you remember Sakuraba being in the early UFC? You didn't prove jack! You think Sakuraba didn't train on how counter the Guard? In order to counter the guard you have to be training in the guard. The Guard is a big part of the Gracies game. It's obvious that you know next to nothing about grappling.

Let me remind you again. The subject is Yang Tai Ji vs Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Not Sakuraba vs Graci Jiu Jitsu. Unless you are Sakuraba's personal trainer you really don't know •••• about what he has trained in so you can't possibly prove anything about a man you don't know. Unless you've grappled, done Jiu Jitsu or Submission Wrestling, I really don't see where you have any credibility in regards to what you say.

Meynard,

I viewed your match frame by frame.And also agree that your Pi Chuan was very effective-in fact IMO was the best technique of your match.I also like the general mobility/agility and numerous angles that you offer an opponent.

One of the most difficult aspects of fighting IMO is the ability to harmonize the ability to be fully rooted for that momentary split second-maximize power- without sacrificing agility of movement-not an easy thing to accomplish-two quite distinct motor programs.

Since you called attention to clips of the matches I will take liberty and offer a friendly observation.I personally would have preferred your Pi Chuan technique to transistion into a more eccentric/sung like beng action.I felt that you "left the scene of the technique" a bit too early.Again it is not an easy thing mixing outstanding mobility such as you display with momentary rootedness for the purpose of issuing near maximum power.

Your qoute:

"No Yang stylist could handle Jiu Jitsu except if he has studied Brazilian Jiu Jitsu like Tim."

Unless of course they are one of the rare few in any style who possess one punch knockout power- potentially rendering a grapplers moment of transistional bridging a very perilous crossing.

I realize we are talking in general terms,but any grappling artist risks knockout from any fighter/ stylist who posses the one punch knockout power of say a Joe Louis.

Whether or not their are any Yang stylists in the world today with that type of skill/power I would not venture to say.

At any rate I enjoyed the fight clips.Thought all of the contestants looked good.

Except for Shane.Who cares if he continually presses the fight,or displays strength,speed and fluidity of technique.He called me an A$$hole therefore IMO he sucks.

The most under utilized and potentially most effective technique lacking from these clips IMO?

A straight hard half stepping jab.

Good point "cool-hand". Check out fight#2- right there at the end of the clip, when the dude in black lands that right hand hay maker. On the street, without head gear or gloves, that fight would have been OVER right then, and maybe the guy that got hit would need an ambulance.

Thanks for constructive criticism Coolhand. I agree with you. I should have followed up with a Beng Chuan. I don't know what happened. I just need to train more. I also agree with you on the jab, but the rules of the fight say no jab to the face.

Coolhand,

I agree. I didn't look good in my fight at all. But I won. And if ever I get a chance to go at it with you 'IMO' I'll win that too.

Shane

Shane

On the contrary I really like the way you close and move-not give your opponent room to operate.

Meynard

Hope my comments are not viewed as being critical in any way.

A rare breed,fighters,martial artists such as yourselves wouldn,t you agree.Anyone who has expierenced a competetion such as the displayed clips will understand that perfection of timing and technique under such circumstances is not all that easy.

Kind of like learning to be explosive while threading the eye of a needle.

Thanks again for offering clips of all the fighters!

Coolhand,

It's good to win, but it was a big reality check for me. I need to work on a LOT of things.

There were more fights. I'm posting them up as soon as I have time.

Jacque,
I learned long ago that while it may be interesting to discuss "who would win if X and Y fought" scenarios, no conclusions can really be drawn. You'll end up with what you have above, people that practice style x say it will win, people that practice style y disagree. Even if two representatives of the respective styles fight and win, it doesn't prove which STYLE is better, only who was the better fighter that day. For example, Sakuraba beat four members of the Gracie family, then nearly had his head kicked in by a stand up fighter. But the Gracie's have defeated dozens of stand up fighters...(all Tai Ji Quan vs. Jiu Jitsu aside,I'd love to see Rickson and Sak fight).

While in my heart of hearts, I dearly would like to be believe that somewhere, perhaps in some misty mountain valley in China, or in a squalid Chicago ghetto, there is some master of the Old style of Yang Tai Chi that could soundly defeat any Gracie style challenger in a physical fight, I'm to much of a realist to have any real hope that such is the case.

However, I hold on to the belief that a master of modern Yang style, full as it is of "empty gestures and flowery fists" might defeat the Gracie stylist in the "fight" or competition that is life in general. Why? Because as deluded as many Tai Chi "players" are about their martial ability, their practice can produce personal qualities that can lead to success in the real world, as well as pure survival on the street. No need here to talk about the patience, or calm serenity that a Martially empty practice can produce or the fact that those qualities might enhance ones ability to function in this helter-skelter world.
Instead, consider the reality of the street.

Do you think that superior ability at unarmed combat will make a difference if you find yourself walking through downtown Oakland at 10:00 pm? Do think that the arrogance a superior grappler might project would prevent some crack- head from finding out how well the grappler caught bullets? To be sure, the person who walks through such a place in too timid a manner invites disaster also. What is called for in such a situation is a heightened awareness and a calm, non-belligerent kind of confidence, exactly the qualities that a martially empty practice of Tai Chi can provide. The pity is, reputedly these were also the qualities provided by the old style. I'm sure that BJJ might provide them, but the mere fact that its proponents insist on its superiority cause me to question this assumption.