That's like watching a playground free-for-all at a college for washed up bullies. Frankly, I find it without merit or usefulness-unless you want somewhere to put the bullies of the world where they can vent their frustrations on each other!!

I think it still looks like the kind of a fight you'd see behind a bar on a Saturday night in most 'burbs!! No finess, no skill-other than bulk, and definitely no rules!!! But, there are those who like to watch this sort of brawling, or it wouldn't be making money. If it weren't making money, it wouldn't be seen. I rented a video last night and watched it. It was UFC fighting. I was so bored watching it that I shut it off and went to bed. There is little to no skill involved, other than bulk size, in beating down an opponent. If you like that sort of thing, fine, watch it. As for me, I'll get a good movie-Shaw Brother's come's to mind-relax and enjoy it and then go nighty-night!!!

Actually alot of them (NHB fighters( have very good striking skills, but they don't get a chance to showcase it very often because everyone's high grappling skill sends a match to the mat quickly. And I don't know if I would call what they do "brawling" either. The moves they do on the ground are as technical as anything else, and the fighters have trained to do them for a long time.

Well.....either the stories of how internal martial artists could hit with strikes are all fairy tales.......or not many modertn practitioners are living up to those skills. Sure they are skilled, but to what level. Many of the old masters could supposedly kill with one shot, I have a hard time believing they are untrue, maybe the people who do them now are staying away from NHB on purpose.......or maybe it's all just a fairy tale, but (Tank Abbott) I don't think it's a fairy tale, just people not understanding what striking skill is REALLY about.

" Steroids in boxing,said Kizer,are not nearly as pervasive "

If anyone thinks these events are simply a matter of traditional/modern training as well as technical refinement has their head buried in the sand

For those that choose not to read between the lines I will spell it out-ROID RAGE.

Now before all the "internalist" puff their chest out to utter "that's the reason" in no way is this an implication of all fighters.

But it is naive to think it is not prevelant-MO

The first UFC was like a cartoon!

The real question is, would you run if faced by any of them in the street?

It saddens me that people still think like some of you. It tells me you've never sparred "alive".

Fights are ugly.

It's not a beauty contest. I've trained in Chinese Internal arts as well as Wing Chun, JKD and all of the combat sports.

Currently, I train with MMA fighters. These guys train in Judo, Jiu jitsu, submission grappling, boxing and kickboxing. "Full Contact"!

There are no legends or death touches, just reality.

These are some of the greatest athletes in the world. They train like athletes, not like someone who punches in the air for a hobby. In a real fight, the best athlete usually wins, regardless of his training.(Unless luck is involved or you get to the highest level)

Last year, I my ACL was injured by a fighter who fought in the UFC. So, during my recovery I wanted to take up something "easy" on my body. So, I took a Hsing-I class. I liked it.

My intructor was good, but he was curious about how he would do against my Mixed Martial Arts training. Well, with one leg I sparred with him. You didn't see much Hsing-I from him, he had no idea how to deal with western boxing, Muay thai kicks, and I'm not even going to mention his ground work, for he surely went down!
I'm not even a pro, just a student of NHB fighting.

It opened his eyes. I suggest some of you test your skills in the same manner.

I still treasure my exposure to Hsing-I. I really like some of the concepts and my instructor had excellent balance, but he just needed "aliveness" in his training.

In a real fight, the best athlete usually wins, regardless of his training."

In a real fight the person who gets the first sucker punch in usually wins. Considering there isn't many ways you can condition the face bone and take a hard full swing hit without expecting it. Not to mention that most fights start in punch range and in a trash talking arguement. They aren't between two men in tights standing 19 feet from each other expecting to go at it as they wlak towards each other.

In a "real" fight, if by that one means a street attack, the first person who gets a solid hit in...wins. And that solid hit usually comes from a sap, a bat, or a bottle...from behind. At least that has been my experience in the criminal justice system.

Having said that , I do agree 100% with the idea that if one's goal in the martial arts is martial (fighting) skill then contact training of some sort is necessary. I also agree 100% with the idea that if your goal is martial skill you should training with/against as wide a range of people and styles as you can. That was certainly true for most historical xing yi figures from Sun Lu Tang down to present day xing yi folks like Vince Black and Tim Cartmell.

On a kind of related topic, surviving street assaults, what do folks think of Tony Bauer's ideas. Note I am not asking what people think of Mr. Bauer as a person, what do you think of his approach to street survival.

take care,
Brian Kennedy

I think a more accurate statement might be

In a "real fight" the first person to stop fighting loses.

Whether the other people involved actually "won" anything in the course of the conflict is an entirely different matter.

And IMO Tony Blauer is someone worth paying attention to.

While we're on the subject of street attacks, I want to take the opportunity to plug my favorite 'experts' again:

Geoff Thompson

James La Fond

Peyton Quinn

Ned Beaumont

I agree with Brian and Rover, the sucker attack usually rules the day. I also agree with Backarcher, if there is no suprise attack or it fails to cause the intended damage, the better conditioned fighter (determination being equal or greater) almost always wins.

Tim,

Would you recommend the books of another "street fighting" expert - Marc MacYoung?

I actually do not remember posting the message I wrote on this board, I posted it on David DeVere's site...unless I am really getting senile.

One thing I would add to it, is when you are pondering street survival two things I noticed from most cases I either prosecuted or defended was:
1. the victim/loser of the fight usually ends up on the ground very quickly. Either they fall over something (a bar stool, a curb, their own feet) or are "helped" down by the attacker with a push, smack on the head or some kind of pull.

2. the attacker almost always uses some kind of weapon. Often a makeshift weapon; i.e. bottle, kitchen knife, pool cue, broom handle and so forth.

The felony attacks I prosecuted seemed to follow an almost "instinctivez" pattern of:
1. somehow the attacker "felt" insulted
2. shove victim to ground
3. pick up nearest thing to use as weapon
4. and last, in the colorful speech of most criminal defendants "bust the motherf**kers head open.


The victim's statement to the cops almost always opens with this line: "I don't know what happened, the first thing I know is I hit the ground".

I mention all this not to discourage folks but simply as a dose of criminal justice reality. The clearer picture one has of the reality of street assaults, the more intelligently one can structure their martial arts training.

take care,
Brian

"the best athlete usually wins, regardless of his training.(Unless luck is involved or you get to the highest level)"

Remember I said, "Unless luck is involved". By that, I do mean the "sucker punch".

I do train with the Blauer "Spear" concept, as well as, MMA. I train police officers and that concept suits them well.

But not to lose the original point, Mixed Martial
Arts fighters, are very good martial artist...not martial shadow boxers.

Ode to the Arched ONE

Oh great backarcher you are indeed great and I am so truly grateful for the enlightenment you have bestowed upon me....

Oh great one your skills are positively huge and I am unworthy of the benign criticism which has shown me the one and only true way of martial arts....

Oh he with the arched back, alas I have been so foolish in the past...

NO more! no more! Away with xing-yi! I shall take up muay thai, wing chun and gracie style jujutsu!!

Oh arched ONE your knowledge is so deep it is fathomless...

Anvar,
I haven't read much of Animal's stuff. I did see one of his tapes on knife fighting, which seemed to have sound concepts (but I'm not expert enough to make a fair criticism). I also read his book on fighting from the ground, which I think had a few fundamental flaws in technique.

What do you think of his work?

Tim

What were the flaws you felt were in McYoungs book on ground fighting?

Tim,

I hope you don't mind if I repost this from one of your previous replies. But, there are people here that need to read your words again. You are one of the few people that can give an unbias judgement one the "traditional martial arts" and "combat sports" and the need for sparring.'

So, here is what Tim said:


"It is not that the techniques in most martial arts won't work, all legitimate styles have potentially useful techniques. The problem is the method of training. Anyone can make a technique work against a non-resisting partner, and, of course, that is how techniques are learned. The actual execution of a technique is the easy part. The hard part is the set up and entry. The method of learning how to successfully set up and enter a technique for real cannot be learned without a non-cooperative, fully resisting partner. Because that is the situation you will be in in a real fight. In a real fight, your opponent will be doing everything he can to stop you from applying your techniques. If your method doesn't take this into account, it is not realistic. The best fighters in the world use relatively simple techniques, most often the same techniques they learned during their first few months of training. The reason they can actually apply these techniques is that they have learned to set them up against trained, resisting opponents. They have confidence because they have been successful for real.

Physicality is also extremely important in a fight. Size and strength do matter, and, especially if you are smaller than your opponent, superior endurance could save your life. Besides regular conditioning exercises for power and endurance, sparring practice will teach you how to conserve your energy and expend it when it will have the greatest effect. When the adrenaline is pumping, it is very important not to use up all your energy to no effect. Anyone who has ever been in a combat sporting event can tell you that whoever gasses first loses, no matter his or her level of skill.

Another place to look for answers is with men who have a great amount of experience in real fights (street fights). If you read the literature, men like Peyton Quinn and Geoff Thompson (who worked as bouncers in rough places, and who had the 'benefit' of hundreds of real fights) assert that contact sparring and grappling are absolutely essential to preparing martial artists for real fights. Geoff Thompson is especially interesting in that he has liscences to teach over a dozen Asian martial arts. But what he advocates practicing for real fighting ability is Western boxing (combat sport), wrestling (combat sport) and Judo (combat sport). The main focus of training in all three is non-cooperative free sparring.

In my own experience, I feel I developed more practical fighting ability from a year of Xing Yi Quan training in Taiwan (we sparred full contact on a regular basis) than years of training in other styles without non-cooperative sparring. Do I believe Xing Yi Quan is technically so superior to the other styles I studied? No, what made the difference was the method (we sparred).

Finally. I'll leave you with a real world example. Meynard is passionate about this subject because of his background in the martial arts. He spent years studying a 'traditional' martial art (with an excellent teacher) that did not allow sparring practice because of the 'deadly' nature of their techniques. When he first came to study with me we could basically strike, throw and submit him at will (sorry Meynard, the truth hurts sometimes). He has practiced very hard the last few years, and is now one of the best fighters in my school. He's done well in combat sporting events (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and submissions grappling) as well as a street fight he got into with a gang member a few months ago (two leg kicks and a Pi Quan knocked the guy down. He had had enough and Meynard let him get up and limp away. Like Water Dragon said above, this is how most real fights end up, no reason to kill anybody).

I want to make it clear to my friends that posted above that I respect different methods of training. There is something to be learned from all drills, ancient and modern. What's important is to be honest about why you practice martial arts in the first place (for example, people who practice for health or recreationally don't need to spar) stay open minded and look at all different methods of training to see what works for you."

Great post.

Tim,

Thank you for reply.

"What do you think of his work?"

I'm not actually familiar with his works - I was considering buying a couple of his books and just wanted to get some opinions from the competent people