Mark,
I don't have the book here, so I can't be specific. I remember some of the actual techniques involved reaching up from a prone position and a couple of other things that I believe are dangerous responses.

One other book of his I forgot to mention that I like (actually, the other book of his I've read) was 'Ending Violence Quickly.'

Tim,

In your general opinion, or speaking for yourself, how long after one stops practicing fighting against a non-cooperative opponent does one lose that edge or skill? 2-3 months, 6 months at most?

I have a question for Tim.

I've seen/felt the striking power one hit knock outs of Hsing Yi and Ba Gua, and Southern Praying Mantis practioners.

Why, in the UFC or NHB matches, have we not seen this level of martial arts technique.

I've read your articles in the Pa Kua Chang journals and you have seen much more then I have...so that's why i'm asking this question.

Everything in the NHB matches looks like kick boxing/grappling. When I would watch my S. Mantis friend fight you knew it was mantis and after one shot it was over. Or after one palm or joint hit it was way over. Constantly I see the pummeling that goes on in the NHB fights and wonder how can this be? And why are they always going for the head...when so many vital targets are right in front of them?

Can you explain what's happening here?

Thanks.

I would really love to see a guy like Chen XIao Wang compete in a no rules tournament, without any equipment. It eould be interesting to watch these mixed martial artists being exposed to fajing. Problem is there is always limited space in these tournaments, time limit, rules, and sometimes protective equipment. But in Vale Tudo and some tournaments in Brazil I heard they have pretty close to real fights. Problem is there isn't many high level CMA practitioners there. Maybe we should reintroduce the Lei Tai platforms of yesturday, with no regard for human life. But where would this be legal in todays society? China? Taiwan?

parttimeMA,

which practitioners of SOuthern Mantis, Bagua or whatever did you see that are so deadly? What are their names? How long did they study their art? Is this all they studied?

Who are these guys who could conquer the martial art world if they wanted to?

Could they conquer the MA world? Maybe...maybe not. I'm not hear to debate style or my stuff is more deadly then yours. I just pose the question to Tim about what he's seen.

I'm not saying they are superior...I'm just saying when they fight they look like their respective style. And have technique and reactions and strategy like their respective style. How they bridge, how they move, how they attack not just the head but all the joints/body. They like close in fights and get as close as possible to get inside. They never retreat but side step. And again these guys spar all the time but started out with basics. That's all.

How many years?

S. Mantis started out in karate and then all mantis...6+ years mantis.

Xing Yi...many styles as younger, later on pure Xing yi for 10+ years.

And now to compare one hit knockout power. Put yourself in front of a boxers punch.

BTW where did your friends train? Some names? Lineage?

different feel.

tai chi, hsing yi, ba gua, mantis shock goes inside with little outward movement. Boxer feels like battering ram. Hits dang hard too and has knock out power but others go inside into soft tissue... No need for wind up. from 4" or less away. Mantis used hard chi gong to develop power.

if good blow to arm...makes arm go numb. good hit to shoulder makes arm go dead. Blow to hip anywhere and fight over.

nothing special...all have power just differnt types. Once you develop the Jin it doesn't matter the blow or angle.

No names I want to mention other then Po Yee for S. Mantis.

maciej:the reality is that Wang and others of his
sort in the Octagon or the Iowa wrestling room
for that matter would be prone and fully submitted
on the mat before they could lanch anything!

I would say the "reality" has not been tested yet.

Never has a high ranking practioner of a chinese martial art ever participated in the NHB.

You have the dabblers. But none mastering at least one style.

the Xing Yi guys from Brazil just offered an invitation on emptyflower's forum to visit and trade ideas and to show "effective" Xing Yi. They offered a place to stay. They fight w/BJJ people a lot and "real" fights every day for their lives.

Bob,
It's hard to say how fast ability declines when not practicing. I suppose it would vary for different fighters. In my experience, ability to execute technique remains without training (like riding a bike) but the wind and timing start to decline fairly rapidly. The Chinese have a popular saying about this kind of thing "Like rowing a boat upstream, if you don't paddle forward you drift backward."

Parttime MA,
Alot of the fighters in MMA have knockout power, and alot of the fights end with knockouts (Igor Vovchanchin's fights come to mind).
There is also alot of striking to the body and legs (but when striking, a knockout is preferred, so head hunting is going to dominate the strategy). There probably aren't more knockouts because it's not so easy with a tough, trained opponent.

Doug Skall,

The question sin't whether Wang or others of his high caliber skill would lose in the Octagon or lowa wrestling room, but the question is would they lose in a life or death struggle against these guys.

BTW, these nhb fighters practice 6-8 hours per day, most people work daily and have less time for training. They also don't pay so well in this competitions, so why would people join when they can make more money doing something else?

Yes they would lose a life or death struggle.

These things are funny...and mind numbing...

I pose the question:

How can "battle arts" that have been battle proven in revolution and revolts where life and death of entire villages/families were at stake be so looked down upon in modern times?

Are we smarter? Are we living in more dangerous times? Are we testing things better in the UFC then in "real" battles. Things just don't jive?? Just logically do not make sense.

You didn't become a body guard or recognized MA because you lost every single match or taught things that just got you killed. You didn't make a style that was just a waste of your entire life and years of practice...where you LOST every single fight.

These arts have seen more violence and blood sheed then any UFC or NHB match.

But it doens't matter...really. It's just sad to loose the arts that have taken generations to develop.

Most traditional Martial Arts were/art not "battle proven." Xing Yi is the only "battle proven" martial art of the 3 sister neijia arts. Bagua Zhang and Tai Ji were/are not.

I believe an important point was raised, an art like Xing Yi had a specific martial task in mind. It's focus was/is a quick end to the confrontation. The Xing Yi artist was to knock the enemy down and then stick him with a spear/sword or other nasty instrument. End of story. Those practioners didn't train for a mano a mano event. It's just different.

I agree what Meynard is stating. All things being equal in a knock down drag out between two opponents, it's the better conditioned person that's going to win. This is why combat athletes like boxers and wrestlers, NHB fighters are in such good shape. I don't see very many 'internal' guys really putting in the time to be in top notch fighting shape. I'm not stating that they're aren't any, I'm just saying they are an exception to the rule, where as most NHB fighters are in good to excellent shape.

As far as technical ability goes, well, when fighting uncooperative opponents it's very difficult to pull off anything complicated or fancy. You just don't have the luxury of time. Setups are difficult and there's constant change in that environment. This is why 'simple' techniques work better. This is why if you drill a handful 'simple' techniques over and over again and you're well conditioned, chances are you'll probably fare very well. This is just my opinion.

good training,
Joe

there were these sh*theads from englands embassy in China, 1928, who thought of english boxing and made a tournament for the "chinese boxers". They fought what they assume as full-contact. Half of the loosing competitors where crippled. The other half was dead. That's the outcome of this kind of training. Now say you want this kind of age back. Poor w***ers.

I have no doubt that an experience Chinese traditional "combat" martial artist would do very well in a short confrontation against a Non-combative sports martial artist today(Unless the guy is a highly superior athlete, who didn't play high level football or wrestle).

And that's what you train for. The average street thug. Your mission accomplished!

But, reality is the UFC and other MMA events are not reality...but the closest we can get(legally).

Every day they are training with resisting opponents...kicking, punching or grappling. Besides that, they are developing the mental-emotional attributes to partake in such a confrontation and they are developing "toughness" and "pain tolerance" through their tough physical training and conditioning.

The average traditional martial artist doesn't need to worry about facing these guys. They are less than one percent of martial artist. But, there are guys out there that are boxers and an abudance with wrestling experience.

I'm sure it would be easy to go to a boxing gym and ask to spar. Even bring NHB gloves to make it more real for you. And wrestlers and Judokas are everywhere...not hard to find. Test yourself, if you really need that.

But, do you really need to compare with UFC fighters? 1- a decent person will never be in an environment where fighting might be needed. 2-walk away from any fight 3- fights are just too unpredictable...anyone could win, anyone could lose.

Guys who fight for a living, shouldn't be compared to those who don't.

"those who think their style is best, has fought many from other style"

"any style will work as long as you have a boxing and grappling base"

"yesterday's enemy is not the enemy of today...so why should we train to fight an enemy that no longer exist with the method that once worked"

Robert

Robert,
I agree.

I think a more direct question is:
"are you satisfied with your training and is it giving you exactly what you want from it?"

If the answer is no or you question certain aspects of the training, whether it is style emphasises, artistic emphasises, combative emphasises, etc. (be truthful) then you should re-evaluate what you want out of your training.

The bottom line is, what can you do as a martial artist? Who cares about whether some old Chinese guy could kick ass. That old Chinese guy isn't you. Just because you wave your arms around like him doesn't give you some magic ability to kick it like he did. Same thing can be said about a NHB fighter. Just because you mix it up like he does (pick a top fighter) a couple of times a week doesn't mean you're going to win the next King of the Cage tournament.

From an attribute standard, the person that deals with more uncooperative pressure will be better able to handle a real "life or death" situation. But, as pointed out above, you have to decide why you really train.

good training,
Joe

p.s. I like the Chinese crippling and killing story. When in doubt, pull out one of those illustrations, they make for conviencing arguments...You should have started that out with, "Oh Yeah, well..."

For me its alot about the intensity of the training rather then whats been taught,I quite sure the old boys trained hard, much harder then modern schools whose main concern is grades,uniforms and self promotion.One distinctionI have noticed is the lack of grades etc at most full contact/MMA schools.Just a lot of sweat and motivation.

You speak of Reality,well all who have experience I think would agree that volience is volience.If you really are that keen on it there are plenty of troublespots so jion up and get a taste of the real stuff.Because thatswhat most of the old boys where about.Times have changed but volience is still volience.Then you might just really appreciate associated health/mediative benefits of your art.And the security of your country.

Maciej: In a life or death struggle if your talking
about a street context there are different
variables:element of surprise, preemptive attack,
weapons(actual,improvised,environmental).
However, the problem still remains for Wang et al.
is that if they aren't victorious in the first
move or two they will in all probability get
toasted.