Do you think these guys are given too much credit? You know everyone has met someone who tells them about an "Old" martial arts master who he knows who is still dangerous even in his old age. You know the old master who had dozens of real death challenges in the old country.

I've heard and seen this a lot, even in the traditional Japanese arts.

Yet, you never hear this about old boxers, Judokas, wrestlers, kickboxers, MMAs fighters(only really a few who are over forty). Why is it different?

Rickson Gracie is an acception because in works out religiously and has the conditioning of a 20 year old college athlete...even in his mid-forties.

I doubt if few traditional old Asian martial artist practice such a rigourous physical conditioning program.

Am I seeing something that's not really there or is there such a thing?

I know these guys would be the greatest teachers and mentors...but fighting against a younger and betterconditioned fighter with a more modern approach to fighting?

I know persoanlly I got a rude awakening when I started training with pro fighters who were 10-15-20 years younger than me. They had less experience and skill, but I just can't get my body to do what it use to do.

What do you think?

Backarcher said: "Yet, you never hear this about old boxers, Judokas, wrestlers, kickboxers, MMAs fighters(only really a few who are over forty). Why is it different? "

There is a famous story about Jack Dempsy knocking out two wouldbe muggers in Central Park when he was 70 (with one punch apiece).

If you live in So. Ca. you'll hear alot about Gene LeBell (he'll spar with anyone of any age, he's close to 70).

Helio Gracie still grapples every day (at 90!)

Kyuzo Mifune, the great Judo master, never lost a match, even though he fought into his 70's.

Backarcher,
when is 'old' an old man? At 50, 60? If you are really interested in the subject I guess you can find out quite easily just going to see serious teachers of IMA who advocate efficacy while aging.
I mean, you can meet people over 50 (an age when the average salary man is considered gone) who toy with young and strong atlethes when challenged (friendly or not). This can also be seen in different arts, of course, as Tim proficiently described to us.
There's a famous teacher, Kenji Tokitsu, founder of Shaolin Mon (recently renamed Jisei Budo) karate, a sociologist living in France, who has spent a great deal researching this matter and written few scientific books about the difference between traditional martial arts - always effective- and martial sports -effective only when young.

Backarcher,

George Dillman (a Pennsylvanian Karateka) claims that nerve & pressure-point methods of the system he practices (Ryu-Kyu Kempo) are only taught to people over 40 & to crippled individuals nowadays so that they have a chance against the young folk (even though these methods are contained within kata practiced by all ages, the more-complete explainations of such are reserved for these older &/or less physically able individuals).

George Dillman is a wacko!

Tim,

Gene Lebell is one of major influences.

Helio is in good shape today, but I doubt if any modern fighter would have to worry about him

I heard the Jack Dempsey story too, but I doubt if Sonny Listen or Ali ever worried about him coming back into the ring.

European, great info!

Dillman...no comment.

I may have been misunderstood. I meant an Old master vs a modern fighter. Not "joe average".

Great replies guys. Thanks!

Robert

Oh, as far as Judo, chinese wrestling and BJJ is concerned, I do think they can hold on to their skills longer.

But, Dan Gable won't be trying out for the next Olympics.

Having lots of Kyokushinkai pratictioners among my friends, I went out to check an interesting story Oyama himeslf reported in one of his books (nowadays on one KyokushinkaiKan official site).
Mas Oyama narrates that when he was in his best shape went touring abroad to find challenges for demostrating the efficacity of his karate. Well, he said he was never defeated EXCEPT once, when he met an old (70 or so) and frail taichi sifu in Hong Kong. At the beginning he was scoffing at the elder but afterwards he - who was already expert in the chinese internal methods through his connection with Kenichi Sawai of taikikempo- spent 4 months in HK to learn what he called a superior art.
Next story: one of our most prominent instructors of a very effective CIMA is a good friend of mine. This guy, as big as a grizzly bear, was once one of the most feared kickboxers of the nation. After competing successfully in Sanda (vice world champion) and Muay Thai (bronze medal at w.c. in Bangkok)he tried MMA and won as well. One day he read a flyer about this CIMA and went there right away, challenging the teacher. Being trashed by the old guy (50 and looking in bad shape)he quit kk and became an avid pratictioner of this CIMA, reporting this experience in a book available in english too.

Whether George Dillman is a "wacko" or not, he & Vince Morris (of the UK) have made points (in their respective videos) that have opened my eyes concerning Karate practice. They probably aren't 100% correct in all that they say, but I believe that they're moving in the right direction (as Gichin Funakoshi's goal was to make the deadly-serious Karate of his homeland into a sport for school children & as a means for testing the ability of adults with limited danger of killing or otherwise harming another -- & thus "grade" them: something never done before in Karate; until then, the only accurate way to judge another's ability was to watch one do a form & if done well, to then ask questions to see if he understands the applications within the form; people like Dillman & Morris are trying to find these martial applications now hidden or lost by decades of emphasis on sport application).

Concerning old masters vs. skilled youth:
Jack Ngyuen (mentioned in an earlier post) was trained in Shaolin from about age five to his late teens by monks in the hills of Vietnam (he lived with the monks until "drafted" into the South Vietnamese Army's Water-Buffalo Division where he was assigned as a hand-to-hand combatives instructor). And as able as he is (skilled & tough as nails), he couldn't ever come close to defeating his old head master -- even as a young man & even when he had help from the other students his age.

Dan Gable will probably be teaching those future Olympians, eh?

Hi,

maybe all these points and stories can be taken too far. If one could name 50 people from each art who are proficient and continue defeating younger athletes while in the 80s and 90s, then it might be worthwhile to note that some people have achieved this. As it seems to stand, Helio, Gene LeBell, Mas Oyama and O Sensei are all exceptions that seem to prove the rule, rather than otherwise. As for particular arts holding up better over the years, I'd have to say that most of the bjj practitioners I know have been injured (usually during practice, not competition). Just like boxing, it is not the fighting, but the training for it, that results in the sports being dominated by the young. Anyway, I don't disbelieve the stories, when true, but I don't think they mean a thing to the average ractitioner. I think very few people will have the dedication, talent, opportunity and luck of the people who have been used as examples. As for age, well, Hulk Hogan is about 50. Yeah, right, what does that mean? LeBell could wrestle his pants off. Helio would tie him in knots. I guess I'm getting a little bitter. And, if I were older I would kick Hogan's butt.
Peace,
Steve James

I think also that if you want to carry as much as possible into your later years, as Tim pointed out in other threads, you have to keep consistently training.

When all is said and done, I train because I like to train, not because of some myths or legends. I train in the arts I do because it suits my temperment, and the people I have seen that have achieved high skill in these arts are phenomenal.

FWIW

Hi Walter,

fwiw, I think your reasons for training are far better than hoping to achieve immortality, invulverability or invincibility. Imho, when one measures greatest in the cma, it is done by seeing how much that person has done for others, the art, and societ in general. "Invincible" was a cool title for YLC, but it's not why he's important or revered today. Without him, tcc would probably not be as widespread as it is now, for good or ill. The same for YCF. Nowadays, we tend to look at win-loss records --which I respect greatly. But, hey, if you fight enough, you'll lose. It's like riding a motorcycle or rollerskates . Respect given to the loser is of a higher quality than respect given to the winner. Respect for those you can beat is of a higher quality than respect for those who can kick your butt. Practicing to build things up is better than . . . platitudes
Sorry, just wordy today.
Steve James

Great responses guys!

From the FWIW department regarding home grown legends:

I was at the Univesity of Iowa when Dan Gable took over as head wrestling coach. The wrestling room was on the fifth floor of the Field House, a hangar-like affair that housed the ROTC training area and the auditorium where the Iowa basketball and wrestling teams had their games and matches.

To reach the fifth floor one had to climb steep, broad stairways that first went one way and then back another, something like an Escher print. They were buggars to walk up, yet one day I saw the University of Iowa wrestlers running all the way up and then all the way back down...each carrying another wrestler on his back. Warm-ups, I believe.

Gable's teams, as you most likely know, won nine or ten straight national championships. And Gable actually wrestled in practices with these guys until he was forty years old or more. There may never have been a more intense competitor in NCAA wrestling than Gable, but it comes at a price. He had to have both hips replaced when he was in his forties.

I think what made him so successful was that he never expected anything out of anyone that he did not expect out of himself. Of course, that is why you almost had to be an mad monk to wrestle for him.

Just FYI.

Gerry H

i remember those stairs. not that i ran up and down them at all. whew.

I was at Target the otherday, and I saw this lady, she was maybe 60, and she was having a hellofa time gitting in her car, she was grunting and groaning, and I thought "hmm, Helio is 90, and he's still grappling, I bet he can git in his car like a champ, I better keep up this martial arts thing"!

To me, a sport competitor doesn't qualify as a true "fighter" in the martial sense of the word. I used to think that my style was so deadly, and it seemed to be when practiced by just a few. Later, as more students arrived, I noticed a general nose-dive in the quality of practitioners.I have heard stories of MAs who could probably have beat their sifus, but studied just to learn technique, and the sifus were glad to have someone who made their school seem fearsome. I have met people who trained in storefront pay-by-the-month dojos but were badasses nevertheless because of their inherent nature. In the old days, it wasn't just a desire for secrecy that kept access to martial arts difficult, but also a desire on the part of the teachers to have only the strongest students pass on the system. I tend to agree with the poster who observed that Labelle, Oyama and the rest were exceptional people.

I agree. Just exceptional people.

"Gods don't smile to everybody"

Of course there are exceptional people, of course there can be only very few Oyamas in the world, of course it doesn't matter how much time I spend in the training hall, I'll never be M. Jordan in basketball.
Martial arts are different, mean something different (not martial sports though). The inner quality of violence - fighting- permeates everything in Nature, struggling is everywhere from the smallest cell to cosmic events. These arts then relate to an universal law and its applications; you can have fun doing them BUT they're not for fun. They are a way of life.
Real CIMA in particular allow anyone to improve his pysique, regain health and become much better in fighting comparing to HIMSELF BEFORE, no matter if young or old. CIMA represent the final developement of a science with deep knowledge of human physiology, physics and psycology, allowing the small man to HAVE a CHANCE against the big through his superior skill (no dreams, nothing granted in this universe..).
Of course "If you want to become good at something, do it a lot. If you want to become good at fighting then you have to fight a lot!" (Wang XiangZhai, founder of Yiquan).

Read some comment somewhere that a while back some Okinawan master was considered unusual as he continued to train after the age of 50. Most folks only taught by that age. Chinese artists were said to improve with old age. Note: this may involve shorter, harder lives as well as internal vs. external arts.