Not that my mind is closed, but I would like to offer a possible explanation for the disparity in life spans between okinawan martial artists and chinese IMAs: heredity. Many of the celebrated okinawan masters were brought up during the WW2 years during which food was scarce resulting in relatively early deaths from renal functions weakened over time. Interestingly, southern fukien-based CMAs (who's arts greatly influenced okinawan karate) weren't generally long-lived, either. Maybe the CIMAs from the northern areas of china (taller, robust people because of a bread-based diet) simply lived longer due to some particular process of evolutionary adaptation. Maybe they age yogurt.

The Okinawans I know from my time there continue training until they cannot. The smart ones adjust their training to their respective ages. A CMA practioner should do the same.
The inference regarding the lifespans of Chinese vs. Okinawans is false, if I understand you correctly. The average Okinawan has the longest life expectancy in the world. This is not due to the effects of MAs. OTOH, Chinese average lifespan is not relavely long.

China encompasses a very large land mass with many peoples. I was referring specifically to those areas where arts such as Hsing-Yi originate. True, I don't know of any specific studies, it was speculation on my part based on the lifespans of various CIMAs. And as for okinawans, I was referring specifically to the WW2 generation, whos' penchant for dying at a RELATIVELY early age (average age for us westerners) due to adverse conditions suffered during the war is a matter of record, and would negatively impact any averaging of lifespans since pre-WW2 records are sketchy, and it simply hasn't been that long since the war ended. As for the longest lifespans, I believe you are thinking of the japanese, not the okinawans, which is an important distinction. Centennarians were common but in more recent times, that trend seems to be reversing. Japanese also suffered during the war, but current thought blames a more westernized diet and life-style.

Synopsis
Okinawa, in the East China sea, has the longest-lived population in the world and has relatively little incidence of the dieases that plague the Western world - heart diease, breast cancer, prostate cancer and Alzheimer's. This book is a result of a landmark 25-year study of the Okinawans. The authors (all doctors) have devised a method for retarding and even reversing the symptoms of ageing for Western readers. The Okinawa way is a four-week plan for diet, fitness and well-being.

This is from the book the Okinawa way.
I havent read it just heard the authors discuss one day on the radio.

I guess if they are doctors, then their 4 week plan for reversing aging must be true.

Ha Ha yeah maybe I should have left that bit out.I just looked up the book on amazon and cut and pasted.But I think you can take it as a given That Okinawans are longest lived on average and thats all I was trying to say.

I confess you have piqued my curiosity. Now I gotta read that book! You wouldn't happen to be one of the authors by any chance, would you?

At this point Okinawa is a Japanese Prefecture. Yes the Japanese have the longest avg. lifespans. Within the Japanese population the Okinawans are the winners therefore longest in the world. Did not bother to read the book. If you live there you can see the people are just relaxed, laid back island types.IMO and most peoples, Low stress equals long life. I guess it's hard to sell those kind of books but the diet books are flying off the shelves.

It's not been uncommon for Okinawians to live to be 100 years old; but the trend may change as more & more of the youngsters adapt elements of western diets (i.e. McDonald's) & walk less than their grandparents. And stress may be increasing as well (you know, from being without transportation, wanting a Big Mac, but not wanting to walk to McDonalds).

Do any of the okinawans feel any resentment towards being automatically considered japanese? They do have their own culture which the japanese tried to destroy. Is their diet similiar to the traditional japanese diet? Does the average okinawan exercise regularly? I have to be honest, most of the stress in my own life has been created by myself through lack of discipline.

For those who would like to research the subject of this topic, I checked out some videos of my collection:
1) aikido o-sensei M. Ueshiba at 78 moving like a spinning tiger attacked by many young -and resisting- m.artists [1968]
2) taichi sifu Huang (around 60/65) dominating a pro wrestler in a challenge match on the ring in HK[1970s]
3) wing tsun dai-sifu K. Kernspecht, around 50, accepting the offical challenge of the national bulgarian Olympic Wrestling coach , ar. 40,(former olympian) and annihilating him in grappling [1990/1995]
4) Kyokushinkai video where a japanese pro champion shin-kicks yiquan sifu Sunli (ar.45) with all his effort in the leg, but goes away hopping in pain [1995/1999]
5)...myself at 31, in perfect shape and 92kg, 'challenging' sifu SunLi abilities and throwing two consecutive powerful thai lowkicks at his left leg while he smiles keeping still: result is a bruised shin[2000]

To Kenneth no im not one of the authors of The Okinawa way or anything else either barring a crappy thesis. I have read something along the lines Mike was going. It was a study of three generations of Asian Americans and their diets and lifestyles and consequent impact on Longevity and incidence of Cancer and heart disease. The upshot was that after 3 generations where the first generation followed more or less the diet of their native countries (mostly Vietnamese, Koreans and Japanese) the second generation adopted a more western but still quite Asian lifestyle and the third generation adopted a normal Western diet and lifestyle their life expectency had decreased and the incidence of heart disease and cancer were in line with that of other Americans.
I cant remember where exactly I read this but I think I gave you the gist of it.

That sounds pretty much like what I had read, but it referred to "japanese". I have read of a similiar study that produced similiar results about traditional mexicans and their mexican-american offspring. My mother was korean, and I love kimche, kelp, spinache, smoked squid, boiled fish, etc. My father was of german descent, and I also love bratwurst, yagerschnitzel, dark beer....I then discovered wine, then developed a liking for rye. I tried vodka, but got sick so went back to rye, hmmmm. I don't think I am following the "okinawan way".

Kenneth

This has digressed some. Okinawans do resent the, and have been looked down upon by 'real' Japanese. Even in the 1980s while I lived there(1981 to 1986) the Okinawan schools had to be court ordered to fly 'their own, Japanese' flag. Say something to one about being Japanese and they will state flatly and finally 'I am Okinawan'. There were a number of events in WWII there the 'real' Japanese considered the Okinawans as much more expendable than themselves. There is still a lot of resentment there. Okinawans were even told propaganda of the atrocities the American solders were committing, such that a caring husband and father would kill his family rather than let them fall into the hands of the Americans. The military even provided hand grenades to civilans for this purpose. Some of these things were being discussed in the media while I was there, things which had not been openly spoken of before.

Despite all this they do think of themselves as part of Japan economically if in no other sense.

I have read that the Okinawans tend to follow the old maxim of never eating to fullness, and other old practices which seem to affect their health.

Mr Hatfield, I take it you were studying martial arts in okinawa? If so, what style, and how do you compare it to CIMAs, especially in the "skills into old age" dept? Mr. European, am I to understand that you are a thai boxer?

Kenneth Sohl

I didn't receive instruction while I was there, there was no opportunity until the last two years but then I was a newlywed. I did meet a senior Ueichi ryu instructor whos job occasionally interfaced with mine. I was able to have only one arts related discusion with him where I mentioned my begining experiments with non focused movements.

I was there with the Marines and had originally hoped to advance my training there and had wanted to find a 'real' not 'foreigner' oriented school,but things don't always work out. Now, at 49, I spend twice as many hours a week training as I ever did while younger.

I did learn that most of what is taught over there to 'round eyes' is the same watered down stuff one learns over here with few exceptions.

Interesting. I'm 42 and in the past 2 years have trained more dedicatedly than I ever did in the past. I think it might have something to do with maturity and overcoming a 70s "me" oriented upbringing. As for the watered down stuff, after training with the rare chinese sifu who not only knows the "real thing", but is also willing to teach it, I noticed (specifically in the goju-ryu book by Seikichi Toguchi, and the pics of Kanei Uechi in Mattson's book) certain things they were doing that none of the students over here, even advanced practitioners, apparently knew. This indicates to me that the Okinawan arts aren't so watered down from their chinese origins so much as it is that the okinawan masters probably inherited the chinese mania for secrecy. It is the fukien styles which have had the greatest influence on okinawan arts, and they are very clanish.

kenneth sohl,

I started CIMA 13 yrs ago, after being beaten black and blue by slender exponents of that art while I was the classic young lion, big and fast.
During these yrs. I got interested in experimenting other styles to apply my one; I started to take part to a sperimental club, where m.artists (teachers) try their respective arts with few limitations(judo, greco-roman, wing chun, karate etc.) and study. After many of us went to the hospital, it was decided that there was no way we could apply certain techniques no matter how, and the whole thing has slided onto a very hard sparring. To be proficient in the sparring part (with 10 onz. gloves and so on) I studied M.Thai and finally graded as a coach under the supervision of the national trainer of my country.
So, yes, I know Muay Thai (and do sparring with atlethes of that discipline almost every week) but no, I'm not a thaiboxer 'cause I apply the principles of the CIMA all the time.
Are you curious to know what we had to abolish from our arsenal since there was no opportunity to practice it without injuring ourselves? Rememeber that for the sake or serious experimentaion we first trained on hard surface and with skinny 4 onz. gloves (openhanded) but same applied afterward with more padding. Well, kicks to the groin, elbows to the face, forearms to the kneeled opponent's back of the head and throws while holding-stepping the opponent's limb.

Kenneth

One of the big parts of 'watering down' is not simply withholding, but lowered standards, but this is part of commercialization. Westerners are only held to very low standards of accomplishment. After this has passed through only a few generations of students, they are so used to poor quality they think it is high.

"After this has passed through only a few generations of students, they are so used to poor quality they think it is high."

That's why they need to try it out in a realistic venue, you'll get immediate and accurate feedback (just ask European!)