Tim, with all due respect for what you do (I couldn't do it), I must ask: do you really believe that one's skills in sparring is commensurate with one's ability to fight for real? Here, I would like to distinguish between "resisting" and "uncooperative" partners. I have noticed that old combat kuens and ryus didn't have COMPETITIVE sparring, even the old schools of Kali. In my training, techniques were often done with almost full body contact proximity, with one jerk of the body breaking your opponent's knee and elbow simultaneously while he is struck. Most of our techniques revolved around this sort of thing, so tournament jumping around and ineffective pounding didn't get it. We didn't spar, but we "exchanged", gradually getting faster and more spontaneous. Ultimately, when we were trying to outdo our partner, it wasn't to defeat him, but to help him get better, so in a sense, it was still "cooperative", though "resisting". Nothing can recreate a real fight. This is a question I have always wondered what kind of respone I'd get. I would never advocate going out and starting fights (like Helio Gracie did), but how does one get combat experience if he truly wants to be a fighter? I live in a rough town, and all I have to do is refuse to take crap (at the risk of sounding like a sociopath). This means that the scumbag will probably come back with a gun, but I carry as well, and that is another aspect of combat requiring training and experience. Any thoughts and observations?

Exactly how many times in training did your elbows and knees get broken? How many times have you broken your partner's knees and elbows?

This is not to be facetious, but to make a point. Your training could not possibly have consisted of breaking your partners elbows and knees, "to help him get better," but probably more like practicing techniques in a controlled manner, against resistance from the partner nonetheless, but which only THEORETICALLY would break elbows and knees if done with full force in an actual altercation.

But if you DID NOT ACTUALLY BREAK KNEES AND ELBOWS on a regular basis, what you are talking about is not reality, and you cannot know what would happen if it was "real." The point is, the technique might break what it is supposed to, or it might not do anything but cause a fit of laughter on the part of your opponent. You can't know without getting into a lot of real fights and breaking peoples elbows and knees during those fights. All else is theory.

Even arts like Judo or BJJ or muay Thai are cooperative, even though they are full contact and the idea is to knock out (ippon in Judo is symbolic of this ) or submit the opponent who is doing his best to do the same back to you. But there is still the agreement - not to use more dangerous techniques, not to do certain things outside agreed on rules - it is different from the agreement and rules that exist in the traditional non-sparring arts (like don't actually gouge out his eyes with the claw, only pretend you are using contact and breaking his arm rather than actually trying to break it )using allegedly deadly techniques, but it is still an agreement.

Whichever training method works best to train YOU for combat is only learned by getting into combat. You can do it the Helio Gracie way, or you can get a job bouncing, or you can join the police force, or you can join the army and go to Afghanistan if you are really serious about gaining combat experience, tho' law enforcement is probably a better bet to learn and apply hand to hand combat stuff like martial arts.

Cont'd

In closing I would not be so sure traditional arts and traditional ryu did not shiai (competitive sparring.) Hunter Armstrong once wrote to me that most of the classical Japanese schools did some form of shiai at one time : kata was their primary training method but shiai tested their skill. The tradition he teaches has the saying : "spear starts with shiai and ends with kata, sword starts with kata and ends with shiai."

It is interesting to note that after taryu shiai (inter-school competitions, often of a very serious and injurious nature) was banned in Japan a lot more schools starting going public: those would be the ones that probably started the traditional arts on the road of "we don't do competitive sparring."

Many classical jujutsu schools did shiai and randori long before Kano (founder of Judo) came on the scene. How else could he have left detailed descriptions of doing randori with his teachers and fellow students in BOTH Kito-ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu? There also exist written account from Edo period Japan of jujutsu students traveling around and engaging in competitive shiai with the members of different dojo that they encountered in the country as they did so. The whole atmosphere was a LOT more like modern BJJ practice and culture than it was to modern classical JJ practice.

Why many of these schools, some of them once famous for their student's skill in such competitive matches dropped shiai and even randori from their training after the Kodokan began winning repeated victories over them, many of them becoming Kodokan schools, if even in name only, is probably a good topic for more research.

Yes, we don't really break elbows and knees, nor does anyone in competitive matches. What I am trying to say is, real fighting IS the only way to test such things. As for competition in the old days, they were usually against other schools and were far rougher than what passes for competition today if the historical accounts are to be believed. I would like to point out something, however. Law enforcement experience actually isn't what it appears to be. Having been on the local Sheriff's dept, as well as worked in a state prison, I can tell you that 8 times out of 10, it involves multiple officers pounding some handcuffed drunk. Not that there isn't danger, as literally anything could happen D(and this is mental training), but just making a note of how it usually ends up. Also, law enforcement officers usually don't get attacked in the same way as you or I would as private citizens without symbols of authority backing us up (although sometimes they do, sadly). In closing, I'd like to say that I am not against contact sparring, simply that it should be held in its proper context as just another training drill, necessary, but no more important than any other. If it is overemphasized, then we develop unrealistic responses based on the limitations of one particular type of sparring.

By the way, when I speak of trying to outdo a partner to help him(or her) improve, this isn't done until it is felt that the partner can handle it. This is what was taught to me as classical "randori", not some tournament match.

Kenneth,

We agree on some things, disagree on others.

I am highly skeptical of any claims of what any technique will or wont do when it is presented as a joint breaker or a sure takedown or some pressure point pain compliance stuff, and hasn't been pressure tested in the real world, or when it is not practiced, almost from the beginning, against adaptive resistance. There are far too many variables in the real world to make it much more than "empty talk," as the Xing Yi classics put it.

BTW, I am in L.E. - If you were/are in LE you are in a position to know its the situations where you don't have backup immediately available that will be more like "combats" and they do happen from time to time. All it takes is one to get you injured or dead. Cops ARE attacked just like anybody else, except that when it happens to cops it is a far more serious situation (just the fact that they are willing to attack a cop demonstrates that) and due to the fact that there is always at least one gun in the mix. Average FBI statistics usually put something like one out of four officers killed every year are killed with their own weapons. I know you can fill in the blanks as to how that happens.

But I agree more often than not we are resisted, not ambushed.

The dog piles, and the majority of arrests whether cooperative or semi-cooperative, dont count as fights let alone "combats" in my book. But at least they are experience in going hands on with people who are not trained to respond the way a "martial artist" of the same style is (as in they might not know they are supposed to fall or be in pain from that lock or takedown and so they are not even unconsciously cooperating).

The vast majority of martial arts instructors are teaching techniques that "will" do this or that without even that level of practical experience, let alone being in some serious knock-down drag-outs where weapons are involved/present. Without the experience of an antagonist adapting to whatever it is you are doing and motivated to do his worst to you, they only have theory. In that case, I think sparring and other antagonistic training, done correctly (which is where we probably also agree) are absolutely essential to developing realistic combative skill.

Yes, I agree that sparring is as essential as any other drill. My point was that it still isn't true fighting, so shouldn't be stressed at the expense of the other aspects of training. Perhaps I was too heavy handed sounding in my previous post. I was not suggesting that a technique is effective simply because it is brutal. The joint-breaking example was put forward to suggest a basic type of technique in my system that we could never use in sparring. Also, because our techniques usually are done even closer in than Wing Chun, point-type sparring is also ineffective due to attacks being disolved often before they can even be discernible to a judge's eye. Also, I never meant to discredit tournament competitors, they are rough sports, just that we are comparing apples and oranges. In our old kwoon, we did spar, but we used no protective gear, anything went, but because there was no competitive spirit (we were quite aware of the potential for debilitating injuries) and a mutual respect we tried not to hurt each other. The only injuries I remember were accidents, but they were surprisingly few, and usually not overserious. We were trying to practice our technique, not show how tough we were. And if we made an ineffective move, why not acknowledge it? To lie about it, we only cheat ourselves. Recently, a friend of mine trained one of his students to use our principles adapted to pads, and drilled him repetitively in the few techniques we could use in a san shou tournament. The student won, actually ended up hurting his opponent, but I tend to think this was because the student was a rather large individual, rather than the training. I hope you didn't find my comments about cops offensive, I would never disrespect them as I appreciate what they have to put up with and a couple still number among my close friends, but I see you understood what I meant about MOST encounters. However, your comments made me think about where I was coming from, and I realize my attitudes reflect the art I studied which has almost no techniques which can be softened to control rather than traumatize (effectively or not), and though not publicized for obvious reasons, many southern systems are often Triad associated. I was thinking rather narrowly of combat and sport, and forgot law-enforcement applications (which is a type of combat). FYI, a cop friend of mine studied it for a while, then decided not only that it was mostly useless for what he had to be able to do, but could get him in trouble rather easily. Not only have I rambled on too long, but I think this has gone too far off-topic. Let me start another thread Hissho, because I would value your opinion (as well as others') on what I was leading up to.

You don't have to "spar" in your art if you are from a traditional no contact theorictical martial art. You just have to get the feel, contact and most important timing of an "alive" situation.

Buy a pair of boxing gloves, shin pads and head gear and just do some non-cooperative kickboxing or boxing every once in awhile.

Get on the floor and grapple. Try to keep a "real" grappler from taking you down.

The traditional arts have value, at times not for real fighting, but still value.

No one should abandon the traditional arts because of the lack of reality.

You can always add reality, but not even in sparring is that an absolute...but it's the closest.

How will you react when you really get hit...when you really hit someone else...when someone grabs you?

Combative timing, mental and physical toughest are attributes difficult to get anywhere other than in an 'alive" setting.

And physical attributes are most important...conditioning!

Robert

Conditioning is important, but I find it much less of a factor in a real fight than in an exhaustive sporting match consisting of several rounds as a real fight is over so quickly. I have been hit with gloves and bare fists, the former did little to prepare me for the latter (so it seemed to me at the time), lol. I wish I could show you our movement principles, it is a style of southern mantis, but when I ordered videos on southern mantis, what was on them was rather different from what we practiced, so if you think you are familiar with it, you may be wrong. We do spar and have many contact drills, (I just don't like using that word because of its typical connotation) we just don't stress it over other training, or "compete", as that mindset would cause us to engage unrealistic safety rules. I'm just pointing out that a real fight is the best way to test one's technique, but it also has moral implications. However, your comments make me realize something. Recently, just for the hell of it, a friend had been showing me some shootfighting, and I am finding that even though this is a very different kind of movement, it still helps me in a basic sense of timing and distancing (maybe these things are much like riding a bike?). As for muay thai, I always felt if I ever wanted to do full-contact tournaments, that was the way to go. It has some principles of movement that can be adapted to some of ours in a limited way. One thing we have not stressed as well as we should is the pre-contact to contact stage (something that padded training with rules does exremely well) where I find fights can sometimes be won or lost. We have san shou tournaments near us ocassionally, I could take up jujitsu as a hobby, it is just that there are so many hours in a day, and I have difficulty putting in 3 hours a day just to my art (often doing less, ocassionally skipping a day or two due to my job requirements). Oops, sorry for whining.

kenneth and others,

I hope you enjoy this story I'm gonna tell you, it's about the original topic.
Yesterday at the regional Boxing Committee I met a friend of mine, a hard thai/boxing type. He asked me about a 'strange' thing he had just seen. He was over with his kickboxing demo and in the sport hall started a seminar of a jap m.art (this friend does not remeber the name of the art). The host introduced the teacher, 10° dan, okinawan, 87 (eightyseven!!) yrs. old and a Japan Living National Treasure, saying: "Don't go hard with the sensei 'cause it's dangerous". Well, a stupid guy (what a coward..), extimated age 35 and BIG, felt he wanted to humiliate the elder and when was his time to be corrected, shot a powerful mawashi geri to the men's jaw. Astonishingly, the super-old sensei closed the distance and.. broke the idiot's leg with one single yokogeri (sidekick)!!! "It's dangerous.."
87 years, folks, 87..

Well, um....I guess that pretty much says it all.

Modern neuroscience confirmates something old m.artists knew: the part of the brain involved in a life-or-death situation is the limbic system (reptilian brain) while the one involved in sparring is the same involved in a ritual confrontation: "Come out if you're a man!". Training sparring one does not really prepare for deadly encounters then. This is the reason why CIMA refuse sport as an end, deciding to use it as a test. In our western society how can we train attributes through sparring but not become sparring robots? I think the best way is to train reptilian reflexes (ex: eye jabs, groin kicks etc) with your CIMA comrades that you really trust and use sparring to TEST your overall ability with people from diffrent systems (friends or not) who will give you a hell of a hardtime since thet are good in their respective field. With your comrades you can play a cooperative game, expanding your subtle abilities (ex cinestetic, propioceptive senses) and -slowly- bring your dirty reptilian brain tactics to full speed safely. With the 'hard' guys you enjoy yourself TESTING how well (or bad..) you fared with your CIMA training. In the run it's easy seen that those guys, who train only for sparring without expanding awareness, energy etc. are outdone by CIMArtists who ADD conditioning and hard sparring to their curriculum.
I sparred (and got my ass badly kicked) with 40/50 yrs. old CIMA pratictioners, but I don't know many (...)boxers who still do it at such age.

No wonder my pet monitor lizard doesn't like to spar. But seriously, folks....yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that the best I'll be able to do is try various types of sparring so I don't get "too good" (develop its unrealistic responses as reflex) at any one, and hope I develop an overall sense of timing, distancing and angling. Probably some full contact and grappling, in addition to reaction drills and 2-man forms. I refuse to do the typical sport-karate type "tippy-tappy" some contact/some point ridiculous jumping around. Not only is it a bizarre fantasy, its attempt to meld contact and points is actually rather dangerous when combined with the often undisciplined individuals who enjoy engaging in it.

everybody,

the magazine 'Budo International', now also published in the USA, displayes an interview with jiujitsu patriarch Helio Gracie, 90 yrs old.
Well, at the end of the interesting interview, the old man (really old), asked the journalist's assistant to..sparr! The young BJJ blue belt (23, 96kg)was toyed in grappling by the supersenior gentleman (60kg).
N-i-n-e-t-y!!!!

While we're on the subject of Helio Gracie, it was alluded to in above posts that Helio went out and "started fights" to prove the superiority of his art. This makes it sound like Helio was in bars picking fights with the innocent. There is no record of this ever happening.

What Helio did was issue an open challenge to anyone that wanted to come and test themselves and their art against him and his brand of JJ (just like the challenge Wang Xiangzhai, the founder or Yi Quan issued publically in Beijing at about the same time). You'll find that, historically, great innovators in the martial arts are rarely bullys.

That was probably mine. Sorry, I didn't mean it the way it sounds, I should have written "he found fights", I guess. From what I understand, it was never to "prove" anything, but to discover strengths and weaknesses of techniques, new methods, etc. On the question of real fighting, European, your post reminds me that it is more a question of mindset rather than technique. By the way, FYI, I really do have monitor lizards. When I was in real confrontations, I noticed that afterwards, my visual recollection was very hazy. I discovered that during such times my eyes seemed to be twitching slightly back and forth a thousand miles an hour. Interestingly, when my monitors get ready to fight, their heads repeatedly jerk left to right.

Tim,
very well said, thanks.

kenneth sohl,
a real confrontation can be of two kinds, ritual or deadly, and two are the contiousness states involved (out of seven). We are genetically 'limited' to the ritual one unless we train our mind and body to react without thinking. In neuroscience mercy is a genetic limit evolution developed in us, mammals, due to their social attitude, to avoid excessive intraspecific killing and destroy the race.
How to go beyond it? In yiquan it's said. "To become crazy while keeping perfectly lucid".
A man of superior ritual technique can be (it will probably be) outcome by another man who is able to evocate a different mind state.

In other words, I'm an a--hole.

European,
How do you describe or define other 5 states of consciousness?

European,
One more question. How does one determine when a confrontation breaks out whether it is ritual or deadly? Obviously, if you are in some kind of military combat situation, you'll be aware of the life and death nature of the situation. But what if you're arguing with someone in a bar and he moves toward you. He may or may not be armed. He may or may not have any real skills. He obviously plans to do you some harm, but he may or may not want to kill you. You obviously need to defend yourself, but killing everyone that takes a swing at you isn't logical. You don't have time to assess the situation. Which part of the brain is accessed?