Payton Quinn has said something similar as Tim just did. Having the social need to fight but restrain from letting yourself go into full blown 'kill' or warfare mode can interfer with your function.

Great question, Tim.

Great question, Tim.

The thing is, if it is an instinctive state of mind, can one just turn it on and off at will like that? Perhaps a fearful person panics and goes all out when the situation doesn't warrant it? Of a person not realizing the seriousness of his situation doesn't, and dies for it?

Also, one doesn't necessarily fight to kill, just take targets (or techniques) of opportunity that may or may not. Obviously, if you manage to incapacitate your opponent, then you are legally and morally obligated to stop (depending on the situation). My point was that not knowing the situation, if you limit yourself psychologically, you could end up the worse for wear. Don't be quick to anger, then you may always be in the right (not that that makes any difference to lawyers). I manage to talk my way out of most trouble.

Ya gotta have your rules of engagement figured out ahead of time, that you can live with before and after attack. Then train it, factoring in natural responses and going with them. This will determine what part of the brain it comes from, if at that time you really care to know.

Of course killing everyone isn't logical, that's the way reptilian brain arts were created, to kill a killer only.
Different mind states were known by ancient warriors who trained their own mind to get in the desired state at the desired time. But, as Tim could proficiently explain, m.arts were secretive and there was ALWAYS a superior level that normal students had no access to (okuden in japanese). Same that happens nowadays with advanced weapons technology, in a way.
The ability of perceiving in which mind state is your opponent, was vital part of the training and has much to do with a very refined global perception ability (i.e color of the face, posture, eyes dilatation etc.) that the warrior had, with lots of training of his right cerebrum emisphere, to catch at beyond-contiuosness speed. Generally speaking (very generally) a life-or-death situation is not having an altercation in a bar ("Come out if you're a man!" thing) but more being attacked at night by an armed punk. The difference -very important but NOT moral here- is when you can move away or not. If you get trapped in a deadly situation and you remain in the average ritual state you're done. These things started to come out mostly after ethologists as Konrad Lorenz were producing litterature on the subject (from a scientific point of view, of course) and explaining such things as the two different kinds of deer fighting, ritual (not deadly) when intraspecific, reptilian brain (deadly) vs. predators. Most recent neuroscience acquintances (the triunic brain) convinced FEW who knew to speak out, but not loud. Please remmeber carefully that real (reptilian) martial arts -better said martial arts level- fall in the warfare category and are CONSTANTLY subject of misinformation by authorities!
Reptilian brain arts are of little use in a police commanded society but, just for the sake of it, I must reaffirm that they were the top training (okuden)of ANY traditional m.art in both China and Japan.

You seem to have done a lot of research, would you have any examples of training regimens of "reptile" martial arts? (my lizards will love this)

Martial sports-oriented arts can give you a fighting edge against someone who is interested in humiliating/dominating you (as in most fights between young men) but isn't as usefull against someone with a great deal of practical fighting experience and the real desire to harm you. Assuming that you also have effective martial skill, then the so-called reptile mind/survival reflex can make your training more liable to succeed in a life-and-death situation.

Such training is more difficult to control than to access in some ways. Some students find it difficult to do; but most martial artists can learn to apply the "mindset" (it's not the same thing as just using rage as an emotional fuel for your tactics); and, I'm sure most of you have trained with students who were always needlessly mindless when sparring or training techniques. Perhaps, it is similar to the infamous junk-yard dog -- some animals are born mean, some are beaten and abused until they become mean and some can turn it on and off as necessary. And, it is rarely necessary in modern life.

Speaking of dogs, one of my main teachers, Erle Montaigue, said it well when he compared using reptile brain in martial training to being like the family pet. You trust Rover, he's loveable and won't hurt the kids or bite the postman; but if a member of the family is attacked your 45 pound dog suddenly seems twice his size and will take on a much larger opponent without hesitating. (N.B. No dog will argue on the internet over which technique works and which doesn't : - )!

Oh yes, and when the fight is over, Rover almost instantly goes back to being a pet -- it doesn't remain in "killer mode". No one normal wants to live with a guard dog that is always ready to bite and your training shouldn't turn you into the equivalent or you may find yourself constantly in trouble with the law and/or alone in terms of your personal relationships.

Very well said, Michael Babin.
Fortunately enough though we do possess a contiousness that dogs don't have. A dog cannot elaborate "I think therefore I do exist", dogs act spontaneously. Human race have developed the third part of the triunic brain, the neurocortex, so creating a fixed barrier against the 'emerging' of the deep brain. Having us then developed two specialized emispheres (btw this is the reason why our left hand is ALWAYS faster..)in normal (evolutionally speaking) conditions we are NOT able by command to utilize our full capacities, we can do -in terms of speed, resistance etc- only seldom, i.e when we touch something incandescent that we thought to be cold.
I must recall that without a specific training of the mind there's no way to control it. Such training is unbeliveable hard and its aspects fall in the 'esoteric' category. For example, how many of us know that every time we lie we create a 'fracture' between the two emispheres? Developing the reptilian brain tactics involves changing the way we live and think, not an easy task uh? A good observer will now start to realize why some advanced martial arts 'techiniques' don't work for somebody but do very well for others: it's like having duelling a Marine and an jungleman with guns..
According to all sources available, the okuden level of all japanese ryu and chinese kwoon was entirely based on purely attacking movements against vital spots, movements put in action for the sole purpose to kill the opponent at a 'reptile' speed. Defensive movements did not exist. In addiction, serious researchers (how few..) tend to hypotize that with an appropriate and fanatic(esoteric) training regime of the mind, some special faculties (paranormal),that evolution has put to sleep inside, do emerge.

US military, combat-trained dogs are usually put down (killed) at the end of a foreign war. For some reason the military doesn't think they make good house pets.

People also tend to react as trained. An unusually large percentage of returning Marines from Raider Batallions (WWII) ended up behind bars after killing civilians. These men were highly trained in close combat (as were their dogs), with the intent to kill (Japanese POWs were rare).

A room-mate of mine had studied an art whose combinations always ended with a neck break; he freaked out when he caught himself about ready to break someone's neck just out of reflex-like, programed motion.

One often doesn't choose when & where one will be attacked (unless one's provoking an attack); and one doesn't always have one's wits about him or her (one may be tired, just woken, taken off guard, etc.). If trained, then skilled movements will most likely happen before any deep thinking occurs (during the start of the actual situation). The mind sometimes takes a moment to catch up to the rest of the body before it can assess the finer details of a physically-dangerous situation.

Kenneth

Rather than going into the reptile brain thing, go to Erles site 'Tai Chi World'. He talked about this and how it relates to fighting before it became popular.

When I did some experimenting I would hold my fingers and toes as claws and have an image of a feline about to claw. This did in fact, alter my mental state. My state seemed more primal, and agressive, and it interferred with my ablilty to speak. Talking brings you out of it. An unusual side effect, while in this state, my lips would become slightly stiffened, for lack of a better word. It was both upper and lower lip but only on the left side, perhaps to dominent brain hemisphere?

Thanks everyone, very interesting information.

My sifu taught us to tightly curl our toes in unison with our fingers, but his english was so bad, I could never quite figure out why, I believe his explanation involved meridians. By the way, the left side is supposed to be the deductive side of the brain, I think.

Yes, I'm enjoying this discussion,

It brings up two questions for me (apart from what the other 5 states of consciousness are)
First how do you access this reptile mind? People have already suggested some methods which we seem involve fingers, claws, imagery and remembering what it feels like when you feel cold bloodedly violent. Any more examples of traditional methods? Are these states described in Chinese/japanese classics, and if so, how?

Second how do you train this state without killing people at the drop of a hat? Or rather, if I want to be more human, how will it help me changing the way I live to bring out my inner reptile? In what ways does this training necessitate changeing the way you live?

I remember once in india meeting some kalaripayat people doing animal movements with the aim of recognising their animal tendencies, so as to be LESS influenced by them. Seems like the opposite of trying to be more reptile.

actually, my understanding of zen arts is that one is trying to rise above emotions and do what is logical when one's mind is finally clear. In ninpo however, they seemed to actually use the various emotions for whatever endeavours they might best be suited for. They used different breathing patterns to bring on physiological change that would in turn induce psychological change. In other words, if aggression makes you hyperventilate, then you can hyperventilate to bring on a more aggressive state of mind, etc. For immediate need, they had different combat strategies depending on your mindset at the time, but to be proficient at such things, one must have a clear, realistic understanding of one's self. Proof that true MAs must be more than mere fighting.

Understanding the spirit and the characteristic movements of certain animals is certainly an important aspect of the Chinese (and other) martial arts. Some fighters will identify with certain animal styles and not others and this is probably for a variety of reasons ranging from the esoteric (finding your "totem" animal in shamanic terms) to being built more like a bear than a dragon.

As to how we trigger these attributes, a variety of hand postures as well as different ways of holding the spine and body can bring about the requisite physiological response; but as to whether or not this is an example of auto-suggestion or accessing some primeval survival mechanism is up for discussion...

I think there is a lot to be said for understanding your animal(s) in whatever art you train it as long as you don't confuse understanding the spirit and the movement with becoming that animal for training or fighting purposes. The latter might give you added feriocity (or make your opponent think that you are crazy!) but wouldn't be much help against a skillful opponent who was able to remain calm or also use "reptile mind".

One of the aspects of taiji that is particularly worthwhile is the concept of using your training to eventually transcend your fears and your extreme emotional responses to situations that normally provoke fear and remain calm in the face of adversity -- or lions and tigers and bears, oh, my ....

I could hardly say it better and even if I could I am too lazy, so if you're interested check out this link.

http://www.hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=1

i think this is a really interesting discussion. and i don't know if my question will make sense or not....

pure (animalistic/reptilian) survival instinct is one thing (but we are more than survival instinct--at least until everything else is eradicated?). doing no more harm than necessary is another (we can have "ideals" which fall apart under pressure?).

is there training which focuses on using your "best self" or "whole self"?

which is to say, if we are in conflict with our self on some level, or intent on "doing harm", we may compromise our abilities, whereas if we are intent on "solving the problem in the best way" in a way we feel instrinsically good about, we may not get in our own way?

i know my question may sound silly, or naive, and it may be. it's just that in the broad field of "life", it's come to my attention that i have more energy and ability when i'm trying to solve the problem, rather than reacting out of pure defensiveness, or trying to "hurt" someone back.

i think my question has to do with, in the end, utilizing all our resources, and not (unconsciously) interfering with our abilities because we fear we are doing something against our sense of what is right.

just a question. perhaps truly naive. what do people think?

best...

Accessing the reptile brain is not related to animal forms or movements. It is about allowing your 'analytical' mind to get out of the way so your responses are more natural and reflexive. This is not to say that being cool and analytical during a fight is bad, but rather that few people will be able to develop the coolness under fire. It may be even possible to combine both. But it takes both experience and proper training, not simply a lot of training.

Going into the reptile mind is also part of/or another way of having to 'enter the fight' as the Japanese say, as some people get clobbered when they hang back not really accepting that a fight is beginning. It involves also the need sometimes to 'flip the switch' and go from 0 to 90 right now

Karate talks about such concepts but the training inhibits them. They did fit in well with Japanese fencing.