I would like to leave this long discussion with a little story. Take it as you please.

Many years ago I was enrolled in a CIMA fedeartion that eventualy became quite famous, but not so by then. This federation offered a super-aggressive version of this CIMA, attiring many consummed fighters form boxing, muay thai etc.
A young instructor from another country was famous among us, stories told about his legendary power and fierce aggressivness, but we had never seen him, not even in pictures. Our national trainer, talking about the supernatural abilities of this young fighter, spoke about how he trained himself beyod the limit. He used to do an unbelieveable number of basics getting near exaustion and after he had his colleagues attack him one after the other, over and over, sometimes collapsing, always going much further than anyone else my sifu had never seen. My teacher said that his will power was 'like a laser beam'.

Once a seminar of this man was scheduled by the national headquarters and we all flooded the training center. The foreign fighter was late and all these young lions where continuosly going in and out the wide doors of the sport hall during that hot day of summer. Usual noises from the crowd: talks, laughs, somebody sparring etc. Suddendly I felt a very strange sensation around my stomach and I had to stop talking to my nearby friend: fear! I watched around, everybody had also stopped speaking and a cemeterial silence fell onto us. We were all looking around in panic, nothing strange. Finally our sifu, smiling uneasy, said the low profile man that had just entered with him was the waited teacher, the source of our fear..

ya, but why were you afraid of him?

I wasn't afraid of him, my friend. I didn't even know -like everybody else- who this man was in that precise moment. Actually, I wasn't looking at the door and I had NOT seen him! We (many people at the same time) reacted intintively with a reptilian emotion: fear. Not only we were in very safe environment but also the source of that fear promanetd it only by just entering the room, collapsing our psychic in some way I cannot explain. Going 'beyond the edge' had given this man such talent. Only after, I mean rationally, we developed in time an high sense of respect for the superb teacher he indeed was and yrs. after he developed the capability to 'turn off' that something he has in him.

'Old' dangerous masters of CIMA? Oh yeah..
As I said, take this little story as you please.

Tim,
I'm sure you know this one.

In the 30's a world lightweight boxing champion went to China for a tour. He's name Engle, from Hungary. In China he fought and won many martial arts teachers, declaring chinese arts were pure crap. A group of bankers promised an enormous amount of silver for the man who would vindicate the national pride. Wang Xiang Zhai -the founder of Yiquan- took the offer. He was middleaged and skinny by then. When the fight started, the gentle-looking chinese sifu attacked the boxer's attack (a straight right) and put him to sleep with a sinlge light lap.
Engle wrote an article for the english 'Times' when back to Europe, saying: "When Wang touched me it was like I was hit by a lightning".

What i 'dislike' about these stories is the inference is that the 'stars', are a paragon of martial perfection, to wit the average martial artist should aspire too. To me this is no different to modern 'pop' and 'movie' stars as a model for the youth of today, TOTALLY UNREALISTIC AND UNATTAINABLE.

It is my opinion that these stories have played a large part in the degeneration of martial arts, expectations should match ability and dedication and self discipline. People start chasing dreams rather than trying to reach a realistic level of ability and when they don't, rather than look at themselves, they go looking for some new martial guru, or guru lineage/style. You only have to see how modern martial 'fashion' changes as new stories of invincible 'so and so' come to light until the hype fades.

I also question the usefulness of such extreme skills in modern societies in respect to the amount of time, money and effort expended, when they aren't really needed (cost/benefits ratio).

To me the value of martial arts is in allowing you to cope better with the ups and downs of life and 'conflict' in general. Conflict and contention are still a part of daily life, but in modern society it rarely ends in 'fisticuffs' . In other words training and resultant skills should be in accordance with day to day living.

Let the old masters rest, martial arts will always exist and there will always be people whose abilities and skills exceed the norm and who are willing to the pay the price for such, but the character of that will change and adapt with the times. Sometimes it will be out in the open, but mostly it will stay hidden, that is the way it is.

So you are no longer in paris? Is the teacher you mention still here, does he have a name you are willing to share? Where are you? elsewhere in france, elsewhere in Europe?

I know of only one guy in France who could possibly experiment with these methods. (It doesn’t mean there are no others.) Dr. Serge Augier, a student of Wan Lai Shan - the grandmaster of Tzuranmen or the Natural boxing. I've never met him but I know from my sources that he is very knowledgeable martial artist with some “unusual” teaching methods, reportedly extremely pleasant and funny guy. He used to make living as a acupuncturist and if I am not mistaken he also lived in California, for three years or so, in the home of Bruce Lee's student Richard Bustillo.

However I would be really careful with this “reptilian” stuff. As I said before, it’s more about calmness and mind control than becoming an animal. Personally, I would be more afraid of relaxed and easygoing guy that moves naturally, than somebody who elicits fear. But what do I know.

I'd like to point out that the state I was talking about initially was one of fear pushing you to "doing what you have to do", as well as the adrenaline intensifying your physical capabilities. This is rather different from the hyper-tensed blind rage that often causes you to do the WRONG thing, rather than the logical thing. Also, 2 more points. 1) Mr Seaby makes some excellent points about the arts fitting the times. However, I must point out that the environment in some of our major urban centers resemble that which caused southern chinese fighting skills to flower. George Alexander, in his history of okinawan karate, points out that the evidence indicates karate was developed NOT to fight the japanese, as is widely believed, but to fight each other since weapons had been banned, and there was no way to defend oneself from bandits. Today, the push to ban firearms, if successful, could make combat and defensive skills accessable only to the physically strong once again (hence, the name "equalizer" for guns). 2) There has been a lot of talk about the differences between "traditional" and "sporting", as if everything else were the same. But if you look just at the traditional arts, you will find they are reflective of some different cultures as well as various substrata of society. The samurai combat arts bear little resemblance to southern chinese assassination arts, for instance, just as the japanese warrior class bears little resemblance to the chinese rebel commoners. On these posts, I noticed when we speak from the perspective of our own arts, we are comparing apples and screwdrivers (I am guilty as well). In closing, I'd like to present Musashi's definition of martial art as quoted by Obata: "....the craft of defeating the enemy in a fight and nothing more than this".

*YAWN*

Reptilian brain in action, with preprogrammed response to external stimulus. What a great sport and he looks so cute in a Barney the Dinosaur outfit as well. Thanks for your inspired participation Bob #2.

Thanks and you're welcome.

Bob #2

Edward,
yes, I'm in Europe but not anymore in France. If you check carefully french books on the subject, you'll easy identify the author you are talking about; I don't know if he's still teaching or not.

Chris,
I can understand your point. The Way of the Warrior isn't for everyone (same of the way of the Monk etc.). Follow your Dharma. Please consider that telling TRUE stories is necessary, is the way we trasmitt a model, allowing ourselves to fix our experimentation from time to time. Every musician who listens to Mozart knows what I'm talking about. Plus, and this is of utmost importance, is absolutely positive that we can get there also, IS TOTALLY REALISTIC AND ATTEINABLE, mind this. They were no Gods, just good pratictioners.

George,
I don't know that gentleman but it's very interesting stuff, thanks. A person who has mastered this mind regime is absolutely (really) relaxed and joyfull. He will change INSIDE ONLY when he wants. The man I metioned in the previous post learned this only afterward, how to regimentate his power.

I'm sure everyone of you can find a correct translation but anyway..

The Awakened said:
"Do not believe in everything that is told you, neither all that was left you by previous generations nor what is the current general opinion or written in the holy texts.
Do not accept something as true just because of a deduction or illation, external appearence or partiality of some perpective or basing on its plausibility or because your teacher tells you that it is so. But when you, alone, directly acknowledge : 'These principles are not benificent, are to be condamned, if adopted and put into practice produce damage and sorrow' then you have to drop them. And when alone, directly acknowledge 'These principles are beneficent, not to be condemned, praised by the sages, if adopted and put into practice lead to wellness and happiness' then you can accept them and put into practice."
Kalama sutta, AIII, VI.65.

Iteresting you mention that episode in Paris, European. My teacher's teacher, when he describes meeting the man who brought the style from China to NY, says that he felt an overwhelming sense of fear when "Grandmaster" performed his gongfu. He said he just wanted to run out of the room. Later he described this as "Fright Power", not something you could acquire but something that emerged out of training, and that obviously "Grandmaster" possessed.
I've personally never felt it, but your story made me remember his.

What is this "natural boxing"? Is it good through old age also?

I don’ know too much about it. Zirangquan, Tzu Jang Ch'uan, Tsuranmen Zsuranmen - supposedly originated in Tang dynasty, internal style in many aspects similar to I Chuan, simple, practical, fight oriented, minimum forms, natural movement. Ask Tim, he might know more.

Regarding "Zi ran men" - have a look at this page:

http://www.ziranmen.com/

- regarding European's Story of Mastery, I've heard similar about a branch of T'ai Chi, where they at higher levels 'train' in like fashion: Train to exhurstion, when you reach the end and are passing out, the master steps in and moves you - in this way, you experience the realm from which he is drawing his power, and can, with experience, return to it. This is a place where the water is clean and always flows...

If you do a search on Ziranmen, there is some information here.

Tim, in your time in china, did you ever see or hear of "old, dangerous masters"?

Kenneth,
I heard plenty of stories, but I only met a few.