Relationship of Pre-Birth and Post-Birth forms

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Relationship of Pre-Birth and Post-Birth forms

   By Mike Taylor on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 11:27 am: Edit Post

One last point -- concerning looks & ability:
Physical looks don't translate into physical ability. I learned this lesson many times during my 11 years with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children (USMC). I knew a Marine who looked very athletic who wasn't coordinated; and I also witnessed an extremely competent, body-builder-type, athletic, Recon Marine break down under stressful conditions in which skinny & chubby Marines kept pushing forward.
Many special forces types rely on booster drugs to get them through tough times. And Motrin is considered "Marine candy." No matter how rough & tough one is, without the God in his corner, he's got limitations (as Clint Eastwood, a former jarhead himself, has pointed out in one of his movies). "A man has got to know his limitations."
Keep using your looks for winning over the hotties, but consider that it's your skills -- and your mental outlook -- that may help make you a survivor.

   By Mr. Classic Italian Physique on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 01:43 pm: Edit Post

Your right, albeit a recent phenomenon, Tim's studio is just over flowing with groupie hotties during Xing Yi classes. It's too bad that Mike doesn't attend any more.

   By DaddyO on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 05:04 pm: Edit Post

I was thinking more in the line of how steroids affect the mind. Steroids = crazy not steroids = body. Denial, aggression and especially big balls are symptoms.

   By Mike Taylor on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 12:02 pm: Edit Post

Mr. CIP,
Keep those hotties there for my return (when the weather warms up a bit & the gov't. stops digging into my pocket quite so much) -- probably March or April. I'll probably scare them away though (with my not-so-classic, not-even-Italian Phys-sick). :-)
Tim already knows of my plan, 'though unknown to him I'm considering a switch to Sun-Style Tai-Chi (while still practicing a little Xing-Yi to further develop my ability to strike). :-)
In the meantime I'm just getting back into training (mostly gi-gung since that flu bug kicked my butt; I feel a need to build up my strength). :-)

   By Meynard on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 01:15 pm: Edit Post up strength...not train...what would the Marines say to that? You make it sound like you are training 7 days a week 10 hours a day. Let's be realistic here 1.5 hours once a week is not going to kill you. What would your Marine drill sargeant say to this kind of "Jerry's Kids" excuse? You will never get a hottie groupie with that kind of attitude.

   By Mr. Classic Italian Physique on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 08:22 pm: Edit Post

Mike -
I'm more on the line of the That's a spicy Meatball type rather than the Fabio type that the Original Macaco fino has transformed himself into. Glad to here you will be back.

   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 04:07 am: Edit Post

Hey Meynard!
Ever wonder why I left the Corps? I am one of Jerry's Kids! Injuries from head to toe dude. What would a drill sergeant say about my attitude? I really don't care -- I'm o-u-t, out!
I doubt I'll get a "hottie groupie" -- I was joking about saving one for me (& I wasn't joking about scaring them away -- I have this effect on some women).

Hey CIP!
I liked that 'ol commercial too. Sounds like we have something in common (a love of good meatball sandwiches).

TAKE CARE GUYS -- see ya in 2 or 3 months. :-)

   By Sneaked In on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 04:13 am: Edit Post

I wasn't getting at you!

Please note the word 'comparisons' not 'differences'. As a Tai Chi practitioner for the last 7 years I thought it would make it easier to understand the Bagua Jings in relation to Peng Lu Ji An etc...

Any thoughts?

Sneaked In

   By the original Macaco fino on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 08:29 am: Edit Post

Fabio looks like Wang Shu Jin compared to me!

Macaco fino

   By Meynard on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 12:08 pm: Edit Post

Sneaked In,

I honestly can't make a good informed opinion since I haven't really thought about making comparisons between the two arts. In my mind it is the essential principles that count. I just simply think that all good internal martial arts work because they use the same principles and it is the principles that I study. If I made comparison between all the arts that I'm studying I'd probably go out my mind. I just think of them as being all the same.


For a guy that's been out of the Marines you seem to be very obsessed with the USMC. I just wondered why the hardcore training mentality didn't follow you after you got out. So how much time did you actually spend in the Marines before you left? Did you get you injuries from training or where they self inflicted? I still say that 1.5 hours a week training is not going to kill you. It might even make you feel better. You should come back as soon as you can.

But, I think I know why you haven't been've been going to that secret ninja training camp again, haven't you? Oh excuse me, tai jitsu, my mistake. heh heh heh. What is it like to spend 2 to 3 months in a tai jitsu training camp? Do you get to wear those black outfits with the mask? :-) Just bring back some souvenirs, I'd personally like a Hatsumi doll so I can practice throwing my shuriken at it.

   By Mike Taylor on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 05:28 am: Edit Post

Howdy Meynard?
I'm not "obsessed" with the Corps. Many of my experiences do come from an eleven-year period with the US Marines. I enlisted at the age of 17 & got out at the age of 28. Yes, many (not all) of my injuries are "self inflicted" in that: (1) occassionally a lack of knowledge caused me to learn hard lessons; (2) I volunteered for duty (over & over again); (3) (at the time) I bought into the "no pain, no gain" theory; & (4) I also avoided being a "sickbay commando" for many of those years(which means that I avoided going to sick call when sick or injured). After my exodus from the Corps my further injuries -- to a large extent -- were not self inflicted in that I became a "car magnet" -- & I certainly didn't voluteer for that! :-)
I have a love-hate (or is it hate-love?) relationship with the Corps. Frankly, I don't think you know what Marine Corps hard corps mentality(-ies) is(are); I do believe that you have an outsider's notion of what you think it is or what you think it should be. It's a deep subject that I won't dive into here. You're a soldier. Some US Army (Navy, Air Force, & Coast Guard) units -- & individuals -- are hard corps, many aren't. I'll leave it at that. :-)
My not coming to class has been based upon several factors which are about to become non-issues (& one could have been deadly to me); so, if all goes well, then you'll see me in class within a couple of months or so. :-)
Sorry; that secret ninja training camp is so secret that I don't know where it is (& I'm not a ninja so I can't find it). I'm not now, nor have I ever been a ninja. I've never been directly affiliated with Dr. Hatsumi -- so I can't get you one of those Hatsumi dolls (so sorry); you really don't need a doll; you could throw shuriken at the real thing -- but I hear that when you miss he throws 'em back at ya. I've never dressed up like a movieland ninja -- or any other type of ninja as far as I know (other than individual pieces of "ninja" garb for demo purposes at Phil Hall's Martial Arts Supplies Store). I used to wear monster masks as a kid when I went "trick-or-treating" -- does that count? Are you confusing Tai-Jitsu (a Japanese art of body movement learned from Chinese immigrants to Japan many centuries ago) with ninjas (an oppressed group of people living -- trying to survive -- in feudal Japan)? To my knowledge, Dr. Hatsumi isn't a ninja, but rather a practitioner & promoter of some of the skills once used by ninjas. I'm not ruling out the existence of a ninja remnant, but I don't know of any (most eventually got their butts kicked back in feudal times). :-)

   By Meynard on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post


Take it easy...the ninja comment was a joke. I wasn't asking for an editorial. Holy...

Oh by the way what was your MOS in the Marines?

   By Mike Taylor on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 04:17 am: Edit Post

Hey Meynard!
I got your ninja joke (did you miss mine?). My MOS ("Military Occupational Specialty" for you readers not familiar with the endless US military acronyms) was O-3-Walk-A-Lot (with heavy weapons) -- don't believe it when someone calls the Corps "light" infantry [they had us tote too much junk to be light infantry -- & the Brits have it even worse! To me hard corps "light infantry" means rifle & K-Bar; and hard corps "recon" means leave the rifle behind]. 'Though my MOS was 0341 (81mm & 60mm mortarman), I spent much of my time in other billets (without a mortar in sight -- YES!), or I'd just hang around with the other forward observers (& watch the show below). By the way, the new 60mm mortar is a far cry better than the old one (the new ones coming into use about mid way during my short-lived career). Uncle Sammy did sumthin right fer the infantree -- fer a change. :-)
My "cross training" included (but was not limited to) "Surf & Sand" (recon training -- scout swimming), "Water Safety Qualification," "Cold-Weather Mountain Training," various "Nuclear, Biological, & Chemical Defense" schools, "Forward Observer" school, & a wide variety of security details (each with their own specific training). One NBCD school taught me that unless I spent a lot of time practicing my nuclear fallout formula (like those who do it as their main MOS), then it would usually take me about 8 minutes after a blast to figure out that we only had ten minutes from the blast TO GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE! Don't that just make you feel all warm & fuzzy? :-)
I spent my last year or so in hibernation safeguarding, cataloging, & destroying "sensitive" stuff. Anywho, 11 years of that kinda stuff has given me a somewhat rich treasury of military experiences to add to my civilian ones. :-)
Just remember, soldier:
"Old soldiers never die, they just
smell that way!" :-)

   By Meynard on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 11:57 am: Edit Post


So basically you stuck some form of projectile down a tube and adjusted for range? It doesn't seem very exciting. After 11 years of that I'd probably hate the Marines too. I gathered from your post that you're prone to injury and that after 10 years the Marines said screw it, stick him in the basement where he can't hurt himself.

   By Bob on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 01:05 pm: Edit Post


In an effort to get this thread back onto the subject of martial arts, I have a few questions for you.

1. In the "About the Author" page of Zhao Da Yuan's book "Pratical Chin Na" four other books are named; specifically: "Practical Chin Na Illustrated; Skills of Chinese Chin Na; Traditional Martial Arts: Ba Gua Zhang; and Practical Fighting Arts. Have these books been translated into English?

2. If they have not, is this something Zhao Da Yuan would be open to?

3. Have you read these works?

4. If they have not been translated, and he is open to them being translated, would you consider taking on this task?

Thanks in advance, tell Amber Hi for me.


   By Tim on Sunday, January 21, 2001 - 07:47 pm: Edit Post

Hi Bob,
In answer to your questions: 1. Zhao's other books have not, to my knowledge been translated into English. 2. Zhao would probably be open to having them translated if the price were right. 3. I've seen two of his other works. 4. I would be open to translating them, if the price were right.

   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 04:52 am: Edit Post

Howdy Tim?
Sun Lu Tang wrote a book on his system of Tai-Ji just as he did his system of Ba-Gua. Now you've correctly pointed out that his Ba-Gua book was written in a way so as not to really teach Ba-Gua (but rather to "wow" the armchair academics). Was his Tai-Ji book written in a similar fashion? I'm hoping that it's more instructional than it is philosophical -- & if so, then I'm looking forward to its release (in English). Pray tell.
Oh, one more thing: is this pre-&-post stuff written about or alluded to in this same book? Or, in other words, did Sun Lu Tang lend much weight to such? :-)

Thanks for getting things back on track. :-)

   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 05:05 am: Edit Post

Hey Tim,
Please disregard the questioning concerning pre-&-post stuff as I just read your explaination of same on a parallel discussion board & so I now understand (it's about inborn talents & learned talents -- so simple to the contemporary western mind when expressed in contemporary western terminology). Thanks! :-)

   By Tim on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 04:21 pm: Edit Post

Hi Mike,
Sun's Tai Ji Quan book is a quite a bit more practical in tone than some of his other works. Besides the philosophy of the Art, there is alot of good information on body use and the images of alignment and motion. My translation is at the publishers (Plum Flower Press)and will hopefully be available soon.
In regards to the pre and post heaven question, Sun actually talks at great length about not using post-natal force and that the goal of the Internal martial arts is a return to and cultivation of the pre-natal attributes.

   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 04:39 pm: Edit Post

I've spent most of my post-pubescent life trying to get back into the pre-natal condition.... but I don't fit anymore- yet, like a moth to the flame, I'm driven to keep trying.

   By Bullwinkles Buddy Rocky on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 06:19 pm: Edit Post

I just miss the breast feeding!

   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 07:53 pm: Edit Post

really? I heard you self-suckle.

   By Mike Taylor on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 10:56 am: Edit Post

Thanks Tim,
The concept of returning to the early, natural (unlearned?) condition has been implied as well by my Tai-Jitsu instructor who constantly refers to watching how little kids walk, fall, etc.; and he's stated more than once that it's easier to teach a youngster the art of (proper) body movement than to teach an old fart like myself because there's less for the youngsters to unlearn. I wonder if my tendency to forget things will help my muscle memory to unlearn...hmmm... ;-)

   By Q choi (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 02:31 pm: Edit Post

ninja =) w/e if intrested

some weird about i don even know what im doin right

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