Bagua Palm Strike

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Bagua Palm Strike

   By Ted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 09:32 pm: Edit Post

Yeah, all seems well...

But the camera work and angle seems too perfect. The hands were very steady, even after the "unexpected" incident. It's like the camera man expected something like this to happen. I think most of us filming a conversation that suddenly turned into a fight would get at least a little excited.

If you notice that after the slap, the camera immediately moved with the falling body. That's some skilled camera work. I'm more impressed with the skills of the camera man than the slapper.

   By Troy on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:36 pm: Edit Post

I did notice that too. Especially the way the girls head blocked the man's landing on the ground, and the double smack sound which was a little too clear if you ask me.

However Tim's right, that fall looked a little too real....

   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 12:59 am: Edit Post

and why didn't the slapper go through the slappee's pockets for cash???

   By Troy on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 01:02 am: Edit Post

Good point Bob#2, I thought he would too lol.

   By A.J. Cahill on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 02:30 pm: Edit Post

Not sure if I'm to crazy about the Pekiti-Tersia article. Sure, the slap is a "natural" weapon I guess, but man has evolved a lot since then, and during that time, has found many ways to build an effective offense and defense via other martial arts. Relying on the slap as "the" weapon is certainly presumptuous and also pretty ridiculous. What if an opponent is in elbow range, grappling range or on the ground? Or on the other end of the spectrum, in kicking range (too far to slap)? You're screwed.

I do agree that highly technical attacks & defenses should be avoided in a real-life situation, but relying on adrenaline and natural "fight-or-flight" reflexes seems foolish. That's what the animals do. And one animal almost always gets killed! If we all did that, x factors excluded, the bigger, stronger, faster animal (human) would win. Every time. That's one of the reasons people practice martial arts: to level the playing field, so to speak.

I see the validity in using the palm over the fist in certain situations, but I feel like the art sort of puts all of its eggs in one basket. Almost every part of your body can be a weapon (head, fists, elbows, AND palms, to name a few) for a reason.

I know I would really need to see footage of Pekiti-Tersia to make a more educated judgment, but I'm just making some observations based on what I read in the article.

   By Ventura on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 08:24 pm: Edit Post

Check on youtube they have a lot Pekiti Tirsia footage. It'll probably change your mind.

   By Jake Burroughs on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:52 am: Edit Post

Tim's slaps are scary! Evolved (whatever that means) or not they frickin' hurt when he connects!

   By Ted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 01:07 am: Edit Post

I was pretty impressed by the palm strike that was at the end of the standing grappling video (during the credits). Good stuff.

   By Ventura on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 11:49 am: Edit Post

sumo slap

Here's another example of a powerful slap.

   By Ted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 02:32 pm: Edit Post

It's always entertaining watching overweight men slapping each other silly. Too bad the rules forbid them from punching each other. Punches are way too dangerous. Slaps they allow...well, because they're less dangerous?

Here's former Yokazuna, Akebono's MMA record:
Not too impressive. Even at 500 lbs, his well trained slap doesn't amount to much in a "real" fight.

   By Shane on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 02:41 pm: Edit Post

speaking of the effectiveness of the slap against a 500 lb'er in a real fight....

   By A.J. Cahill on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 04:18 pm: Edit Post

Yeah that's the one the Pekiti-Tirsia site promotes, even though Hackney does karate (I believe). The P-T clips on youtube were pretty cool, though it's mighty humorous seeing an old Filipino man spanking a Filipino commando-in-training.

   By A.J. Cahill on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 04:35 pm: Edit Post

Yeah that's the one the Pekiti-Tirsia site promotes, even though Hackney does karate (I believe). The P-T clips on youtube were pretty cool, though it's mighty humorous seeing an old Filipino man spanking a Filipino commando-in-training.

   By Elliot on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 02:11 pm: Edit Post

Do you think closing you hand makes the strike hit harder than if your hand is open, when the strike is at the same speed?

Can you hit someone in the head as hard with you fist as a slap and not hurt your hand?

Maybe they dont let punches in Sumo because they don't want them to hurt their hands.

   By Ted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 04:47 pm: Edit Post


Physically, the fist has several advantages. First, from a reach advantage, the fist has an extra 3 inches depending on the size of your hand. The reach of the palm stops around the area of your wrist. Go ahead in front of the computer and make a palm, and then, make a fist. You can see that the fist adds 3 or 4 inches to the reach of your strike.

If you're trying to get through your opponent's defenses at the centerline, a smaller fist surface area can be an advantage. A palm has about more than double the surface area of a fist, making it more difficult to slip through your opponent's guards.

If you're trying to go outside your opponent's defenses, the hook has decided advantage over a slap. During a hook, your arm is naturally curved. If an opponent has both hands up, you can go outside his guard with a hook and maintain all of its power. This is definitely not true for a slap. You arms are straight during a slap and if you curve it, the power gets taken off the slap.

Yes, your hands can get hurt, but who wins the fight? I've never had my wrist broken, but I've had knuckles severely bruised by punching to the jawline. In the adrenaline rush, you hardly feel it. AFTER you win, you can go home to your girlfriend and show off your battle wounds.

If you look at UFC fights (like the Hackney fight) where the fighters break their hands, the fighter almost always wins the fight and finishes it. I remember two Kent Shamrock fights where he won but had a broken hand afterwards.

I think UFC and Pride has evolved over the years, where today, you almost never seen an open handed attack. The palm is still a legal blow. I think the fact that everyone punches in the UFC/Pride where "everything goes" is a testament in itself of the advantages of punching.

   By robert on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 12:49 pm: Edit Post

If you can strike with power than it doesnt really matter what hand "shape" you use to hit the guy, from a plain point of view, different shapes influence the energy release on impact.

can you beat a drum with your fists? Can you dig a hole with your palm? You cant grab grab with a closed hand. okay, sorry, enough with the parables...

this has just become one of those "whats better?" type threads. i dont see it getting anywhere.


   By Troy on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 08:31 pm: Edit Post

Tim told me one of the nice things about striking with your palms is that it takes less time to switch from striking to grappling and wrestling.

Although reach is a factor, your footwork is more important. Utilizing that footwork and body positioning will contribute greatly reducing any reach advantage.

It is my opinion that the use of the fist is based off a natural reaction. Look at babies when they get scared, a lot of them squeeze their fists out of reaction. I think it is based a lot off the engagement of the autonomic nervous system (the involuntary one, aka fight or flight response). However, if one is trained it wouldn't matter whether they use palms, fists, feet, or weapons. Their skill should be effective enough to not soley rely on the ANS, but on techinique, conditioning, and strategy.

   By Elliot on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 09:58 pm: Edit Post


You made some good points.

The Pride and UFC maybe use the fists more because they are now wearing gloves.

   By A.J. Cahill on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 03:48 pm: Edit Post

I have to agree that different situations call for different weapons, and I think the hook is a perfect example of a situation where a slap would be ineffective - apologies if there is a hooking palm technique. I don't think the use of gloves would hinder open-handed techniques at all. There is much less - if any - padding on the palm-side of the glove as opposed to the knuckle-side. What's stopping an MMA practitioner from using the palm? Certainly not the gloves themselves.

Add a Message

This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.