It had been a while since my last extended session of qi gong. After about 45 minutes (of being tucked) I felt an area near the bottom of my spine just to the left begin to relax and give way. It fluxed between its original state and a deeper more relaxed state. I have had this happen before with my shoulder and again with my mid-back. This was the first time the sensation was not symmetrical. I think it lasted a couple of minutes. This was about 10 days ago. The next day I discovered a deep pain in that area. It appears to be a muscle or ligament or something. The soar area follows a path diagonally to the upper outer left buttocks and down a little past the hip joint. I will not be tucking for a while. Wow, I never thought I would injur myself by meditating.

If you try the same Qi Qong stances without tucking- you'll feel more powerful, more stable and have no pain in your back, hip, buttocks.

Thanks for the reply Shane. I will try that this weekend.

No pain no gain, I always say!

Sounds like you were going too long too soon. Hanging from a pullup bar may help a little. ( and good for your back anyway)

Thanks Mark, I will give that a shot on my lunch break.

I'm not sure that anyone can learn to "tuck" properly without the supervision of someone who can actually demosntrate how to do it properly. Like any other subtle physical aspect of the internal arts it is as easy to miss as it is to overdo.

For my two cents on the subject of standing qigong: tucking should "open" the lower back/ming-men area gently while the tailbone tucks under and up gently. In this way the perineal area including hui-yin is gently "closed" (in part so your qi doesn't leak out the anus) and ming-men/lower back is gently open so that the qi can rise more easily. In practical terms, doing this correctly makes it easier to feel as if you are sitting properly. Doing all of the above will also make it more likely that the lower kwa is also gently rounded and open which ensures that your knees are less likely to bow-out or bow-in ... . Approached this way, it's easier to see how doing one physical thing makes it easier to do another required physical thing, etc. Conversely, leaving one out can also have broader consequences

It is important to remember that all of the above is more appropriate to quiet standing of any kind than to moving qigong or taiji/internal forms. You can't try to stay tucked and do postures/movement properly and with any kind of grace or power.

In movement, there is always a gentle opening and closing of the mingmen/lower-back area that is co-ordinated with a host of other crucial factors.

One more thing, pain in standing qigong can be a sign that an old injury has begun to heal in physical/energy terms; but, it can just as easily be a sign that you were standing stiffly or badly in postural terms (ie., leaning backwards or too much weight on one leg while in a horse-stance being common culprits) or for too long. All are good reasons to learn from a qualified practitioner and have some supervision, at least in the early stages of training.

Standing qigong is a powerful method of training but it should be moderately and competently done and only part of your internal training -- not the whole banana!

If you used 'the whole banana' wouldn't that stop the qi from leaking out your anus?

Speaking of sitting... have you ever noticed, when you sit in a chair- if you bow out the lower back- you feel crudy- but if you elongate your spine and keep it's natural curve in the lower back- you feel healthier and even taller? The same applies for standing postures and most qi gung excercises.

Bob#2

I'll leave such use of bananas for those more creative -- and desperate -- than me. The reason for lifting the perineal area is a traditional one; I didn't say that I necessarily believe it.

Yes, elongating the spine gently -- as opposed to trying to eliminate the natural curves of the spine -- is also an important part of standing qigong. One often sees those who practise somewhat rigidly (in all senses of that word) looking as if they are trying to turn their spines into ramrods.

On the other hand, many practitioners do standing qigong without attention to "tucking" or any other relevant concept because they have been told or they have assumed that standing is exactly like what you do while waiting at the bus-stop.

Had my first ground fighting lesson today... arm too sore to type...chi leaking out of ears... must lie down... I agghhh

You basically answered your own question. Over time your hips like all other areas of your body will fall into a relaxed and comfortable yet ready state.

You will find whats right and natural for your body over time and dedicated practice. Don't complicate it. There is no ancient chinese secret linked to your anus.

In Xing Yi Quan there are 'three harms' that one must guard against; forcing or holding the breath, pulling the stomach up (sucking it in), sticking the chest out. All of these result in 'stiffness' ('incorrect tension', should be dynamic/alive like springy vine, not dead twig)that breaks connection (even if your external alignment isn't too bad). Apply force on dead twig and it will break, can't maintain structure under pressure, but springy vine can adapt and change and move without compromising structure.

The tricky thing is, if you focus on avoiding the three harms, in all likelihood you will exacerbate, rather than alleviate the problem. The key is to focus (not force) even more on correct external alignment, like the three piece dragon body, eight character/three methods etc. In this way the external trains the internal, and little by little, day by day gravity (major influence on our structure) will help pull you into correct alignment if you allow it and don't over-resist (learn to work with it and make subtle ajustments).

These principles hold whether still or moving, practising alone or interacting with a 'friend'.

When I apply force on a living twig it breaks... although it lasts longer than a dead twig-
am I doing something wrong or does that twig anology need a little more work?

Force is relative, so are analogies. According to the physics idea, you are doing work when a push or pull moves through a distance, so which are you talking about, little more pushing or pulling or increasing the distance or both? How are you applying force to the springy twig (i used a vine too), torquing twisting action, wedging horizontal force etc?

Neither - I placed a dead twig between the heads of two 2nd graders during a Tai Ji demonstration yesterday morning. I pressed their heads together and 'snap' went the dead twig. Then- ready to impress upon my audience the importance of being 'alive and flexible' I placed a living twig between the same two craniums, pressed and 'snap' went your friggin' analogy- WHICH MADE MY ASSISTANTS START CRYING, YOU BASTART.

luckily the recess ending bell sounded before things turned ugly and all the tykes ran back to class like roaches to a fetus.

Thanks, i'll keep that in mind next time i find myself horizontally wedged between a couple of little kid's skulls.

watch it with those twigs, bob #2.

Thank you all for your input.

Shane and Michael: I tried to leave out the tucking. That was more uncomfortable than tucking. In order to relieve tension in the lower back while not tucked, I would have to alter most aspects of my stance below the waist.

Mark: I went to the gym just a little while ago. Just hanging by the hands from the chin-up bars sounds like a good way to gently stretch the muscles of the spine. That may be the case for a healthy spine that is free of soreness and injury. The wait my legs placed on the lower back was too intense.

I did resume the tucked stance earlier in the week. I will just take my time and work my way up to my former level.

You might want to ease off practice for a few days, tucking or no tucking, and see a physical therapist. Continuing to practice through the pain could aggravate it.

Xtucker- here's a tip on stance keeping that recently helped me a great deal ...

you don't want to 'stand' with your knees beyond your toes- in order to get the feel of how deep your stance can be without the knee passing the toe:

face a wall- with your toes touching the wall-
then squat as low as you can without your knees touching the wall (without tucking)- that is as low as you should squat during stance keeping excersises. As you get better- (check yourself against the wall every few months) you'll be able to squat lower properly.

It's normal to have sore muscles (thighs and shoulders) after stance keeping- but if your knees or back hurt you're doing something wrong & nonbenificial in your practice.

(I hope that doesn't offend any butt-tuckers and/or chi-huggers out there).

The preceding advice is excellent for learning to sink lower without compromising your knees although I would suggest that you should not routinely squat past the point in which your thighs are parallel to the floor.

As to standing qigong, a practical variation of the above is to stand in front of a waist-high wall/counter and keep your knees and toe-tips comfortably touching the surface in front of the legs. Standing like this for short periods of time can help a novice learn how to keep a moderate horse-stance (as is often used in standing qigong). If you don't pay attention, your knees will hurt a bit from exerting pressure on the wall too much which probably means that you are either bending the knees too much or leaning forward; or, your knees will "float" away from the wall which probably means that you are leaning back or subconsciously straightening your knees.

Tucking is not easily done subtlely and is usually either overdone or not done at all in the modern versions of the internal arts.

The concept of the knees being 'not past the toes' means the knee not passing the spot where the toes connect to the foot. So Michael's suggestion of putting the knees AND the toes against the wall; assuming the wall is straight; would mean extending the knee past the toes which explains why some would experience pain the the knees with such a method.

(In my original suggestion- note I said toes agains the wall and squat as far as you can WITHOUT your knee touching the wall... that way- the knee stays behind the toes). I'd further suggest that Michael's notice of the knees "floating" away from the wall is another case of the body knowing better than the brain.

As for 'squating lower than the thighs parallel with the floor' is valid when considering weight training... however- being able to do the 'Asian Squat' (where one can rest with their butt on their heels) is actually great for hip and knee flexibility.

As for the tucking subtlties- I look at the pictures of my favorite bad-asses in history and clearly see that they aint tucked.

Re; 'sinking' aspect, should beginners be thinking about lowering frame or 'opening' frame first?

I agree that the "Asian squat" can be an excellent exercise for those who are young/fit or have been doing it routinely since childhood for cultural reasons. I don't think that it's an excellent exercise for anyone older with arthritic knees and/or hips as is often the case with older western beginners studying qigong or taiji.

As with any issue in training, it's easy to get side-tracked if you don't practise under the supervision of someone who can actually do the thing that you are trying to learn.

Tucking the ming-men/hips too much and doing so all the time is counter-productive; not tucking at all -- at the right time -- is also counter-productive. Bending the knees too much can contribute to premature wear in those essential joints; not bending the knees in co-ordination with ming-men/hips can also be counter-productive in terms of martial "springiness" and bio-mechanical effeciency.

Shane -- As to your favourite historical "bad-asses"; I would imagine that they were posing for the photos/images in clothing and that it would be rather difficult to tell what, if anything, they were doing with their lower-back areas. Conversely, in modern times, whenever I see photos or films of nearly-naked African Nuba or Turkish wrestlers (or even UFC competitors) about to come to blows in sporting encounters, there is obviously curving of the spine and fluid "tucking" of the lower back as a set-up for the releasing of power that can come in part from straightening the spine.

Yeah. Those guys down at the BJJ school are some C-shaped badasses!

"there is obviously curving of the spine and fluid "tucking" of the lower back as a set-up for the releasing of power that can come in part from straightening the spine."

nicely put.