I'm a practioner of Eskrima. We never discussed chi or ki. It seems that there's a lot of information that's confusing to anyone that's not familiar with it.

I've been looking through the book by BK Franzis... still confused.

Tim, can you put it in plain english for me. I do believe it exist, but what is it. What can chi do and not do.

Pardon me for interjecting,

Hecmail,
What is confusing?

Is it an energy that you can cultivate for health or fighting. Or is it your intention (mind) that you are developing.

I take it with a grain of salt that someone can fly through the air by a mere touch. Or that they can emit their energy to controll you.

Hi Hecmail,
What Qi (Chi) or Ki is defined as depends on who you ask. In Chinese medical theory, Qi is believed to be an unseen flow of some type of energy that moves through specific channels (meridians) and that is the underlying source of life force for the body. Chinese medicine differentiates between many types of Qi, each having a specific function.

In the Chinese martial and health arts "Qi Gong" is the name given to various types of breathing/intention/movement exercises. These exercises are designed to oxygenate the body, increase the circulation and improve conscious control over movement (mind and body unity). The exercises are akin to the Pranayama practices of Yoga.

I don't believe it is possible to "emit" energy to control or move someone without touching them either.

Hi Hecmail. My Taiji teacher rarely even talked about Qi but when he did he differentiated between medical and martial Qi. His view was that martial Qi was a result of being fluid in movement while maintaining perfect body mechanics and coordinated breath. Similar to what a marathon runner. long-distance swimmer or very good wrestler achieves. As Tim says most IMA have Qigong exercises to train the "coordinated breath" where the forms and sensitivity drills train the "body mechanics and fluidity of movement". If you practice Qigong for health - 1,000's of old people in the parks in China - you will feel much healthier but it most likely won't have a direct impact on your fighting skills. Training under a good IMA teacher will give you an even greater feeling of health as well as power resulting from proper training. In martial arts it's really all mechanics and intent.

Hi Guys,

Hecmail,
I'll offer up an experience I had that most probably will not shed any light on this subject, but might lead you to enquire further into this aspect of training.

I was originally taught to walk a circle with the arms/hands in static postures. The requirements of these postures was very specific, as was the manner of walking. The weight in the feet (not between, but in each individual foot) was to be balanced on three points(ball of big toe,ball of little toe, and centre of heel); the arm frame was rounded with certain fingers or thumbs pointing in certain directions(ofcourse with intention) and the walk was to be slow and relaxed.

After a few days I could feel the momentum, created by the walk, move from my feet, up through the body to my hands. This was a marvelous break through for me as I began to realize what to aim for in terms of movement and power. This assisted me in the forms I learnt subsequently. Three years down the line, I returned to these basic walking exercises (owing to a renewed interest in meditation) and found that they had more to offer. I began to experience movement in my abdomen that manifested itself as rapid but very small left and right rotations of my waist. I must state that this arose with no "intention" but happened completely spontaiously. I just carried on walking and observed this phenomena and concidered it part of a progression of some sort. It was not untill years later (incidentally by this time I could turn it on at will) that I discovered that this quality/movement could be applied(through the arms) to martial skills, for striking, neutralizing, or completely confusing an opponent in stand up grappling situations. I can only conclude that this practice has the potential to improve fighting skills, as it allows me good hand speed and a short power that I did not Previously posess.

Whether this ability was born of a physiological effect of walking and relaxing or Chi cultivation or mind body unity (although the later is unlikely, as it was spontanious) I don't know, but the experience was enough to make me pursue this form of training further.

I do agree with Erik that mechanics and intent has alot to do with it, but I will not discount chi practices (even if only taken on their own terms) as they have given depth to my progress.

Good training and peace

The concept of ch'i has direct western correlations but by no means is the eastern concept of ch'i limited to these. In regard to martial ch'i, it can be equated to what we in the west term kinetic energy. From a physics standpoint, energy is that which enables you to do work. Work is force times distance. Power is work divided by time interval. Types of energy include potential energy, that which is stored and held in readiness. The other is kinetic energy, which stored energy becomes once released, as kinetic energy is energy in motion. Interesting to note, that while force=ma, kinetic energy= 1/2 mass times speed squared. Another equation is Impulse=force times time. This refers to how long the striking object is in contact with the object being struck. This has direct influence on how much kinetic energy will penetrate struck object. At any rate, this kinetic energy is equivalent to martial ch'i. The east takes this much further than i have briefly laid out here and are concerned with the cultivation and storing of this energy and the movement of this energy as it relates to health and fighting.

Hi Henry, You're absolutely right in that Asians seem to define and describe this concept clearly whereas it (the description or concept) seems to be totally lacking in western physical arts. Similar to the way 'Iron Shirt or Iron Body' is. But it doesn't mean that asians have a monopoly on it or that it doesn't exist in the physical arts of the west. Any professional boxer, kick-boxer or Muay Thai fighter working with a medicine ball for years will have the same 'Iron Shirt' skill as a practicioner of this particular Qigong and far more ability than the layman. Extensive training in power exercises, breathing exercises, sensitivity drills, forms and application training will give you a feeling of having tremendous power in your movement. Breakthroughs in various training methods can heighten this experience but, personally, I believe the most dramatic experiences of what some people call Qi come from a good mix of all these. The ultimate test of Qi is being able to apply power and technique in non-cooperative practice. So now we add free-sparring drills to the recipe. I see it as a 'side effect' or result of well rounded training which results in good all-around health and a sensation of being very powerful in application. I've come to feel that if my techniques are truly using 'Qi' they feel effortless and it is difficult to define where the power comes from (true whole body power). It's not a coicidence that the martial artists of the past that made this concept well known were very skilled and well rounded fighters. I've met people who practice IMA for health, meditation and Qi who couldn't push over a chair. They may be extremely healthy but there's no "martial qi" there.

Mr Walker,

I believe the static postures you refer to are sometimes called the "mother palms". These are usually taught seperately, as you learned them, or combined in the palm changes as in the Sun style. I believe that it IS the mind/body unity which allows you to experience this power/movement, not any cultivation of a mystical power. The rotations you described were already there. Through much practice, this unity has made you much more aware of your body and as such has developed an ability to control/direct it.

Henry, call it what you like. You have bascially just stated my case that what people want to say is "chi" is a matter of physics. Any other explanation is just seeking to add Asian mysticism into the mix.

The Capt

Wind Walker's experience with the Mother Palms illustrates an important facet of "Internal" training. One of the hallmarks of the IMA practice involves inhibiting non-productive learned responses and superfluous movement (bad habits of using the body)so that truly natural movement patterns and true balance once again emerge. In the human body, nothing is more efficient than natural power, which is created by using the body according to its design.

The so-called "Daoist" influence in the IMA is not so much concerned with the practice and cultivation of mysterious powers and energies as it is with a return to the ability to access our inborn potential for natural and spontaneous movement and power. Apparently 'simple' practices like slowly walking a circle while holding static upper body positions (or static stance keeping) serve to reduce physical and mental variables to a minimum (while providing a focus of attention), so that the practitioner can focus on the feeling of the alignment, momentum and the body's reactions to them. The increase in the depth of mind/body unity serves to inhibit counterproductive learned and subconscious body use and to facilitate the return to natural, whole body power.

Tim and Capt Ahab,

Wonderful, thanks for your thoughts. I also thank you for reminding me about "chipping away at the non-essentials".

Captin,
I would be interested to know What you mean by "the rotations you describe where already there". Are you speaking of peristalsis, or twistings of musculature inside the abdomen? What exactly do you consider is causing these movements?

Thanks

Walker,

Whoa dude, peristalsis? Boy, I had to look that one up! Maybe I'm way off base here. From what I can gather peristalsis has to do with the digestion process. Is it your innards that are rotating? Maybe you should lay off the jalapenos . I thought you were referring to the movement of your pelvis caused by the act of walking. Please clarify.

The Capt.

Captin,
well this is the thing, if it was just winding up and unwinding from turning a circle I would have an easy explanation for it. BUt this is more akin to the small rotations a dog makes when shaking itself dry. I'm talking Small!
Another thing is that to each slow step on the circle I can have six to ten rotations left and right, so the movements "seem" to be independent of any compression or reaction from the ground.It is DEEP INSIDE.

This is not shaking due to fatigue nor a tensing of the muscles of the abdomen(in fact tensing those muscles slows down these rotations, I've tried). This thing started happening by itself and then I gained control of it. With standing practice and slow walking I have learned to make this feeling rotate on different plains. It feels like "rolling" momentum around the inside of my tummy (horizontal, vertical and sideways vertical circles and figure eights), Through combining this quality with the palm changes I have also learnt to "sling shot" this rolling force to my arms and legs.

My point to Hecmail was only that there is something to be gained from Nei Gung and Chi Gung
Practices. All to often I have spoken to athletes, sports experts, martial artists etc, that speak of fast twitch this and slow twitch that(all of which I find fasinating by the way) but will not except that there could be something to standing or walking circles slowly.

I have know idea what chi is or is not, but taken on there own terms and practiced in the manner prescribed, these forms of training yield good results, and as I see it are the foundation of well rounded training.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm also interested in western explanations of "Internal Arts", and thats why I asked what you think this rotation thing is all about.
Some Chi Gung folks say it is the activation of the Dan Tien, I'm hoping truth does not have exclusivty in the language that describes it(co's me spelling ain't too hot).

Then again maybe your right, those chilli's sure get me excited!!

Regards Wind Walker

Boy, I'm affraid you've got me baffled with that 1. I think I'll go fishing!

The Capt

Hi again,
You think your baffled! This is something I'd like to get to the bottom of as well. This sort of thing is not uncommon in schools of chi gung and some internal arts styles teach it as well.

I feel, regardless of chi, it might be as you said, becoming more aware of my body and getting the movement/power to come from deeper inside.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has another slant on this kind of thing.

I think that "Chi" is perfectly explainable using a western scientific approach. To my understanding there are really two "Chi" forces that are interrelated:
1. Bio-electrical energy carried in the blood stream and energized with oxygen. This can be easily felt during internal martial art practice (after some time) or meditative practices.
2. The force generated by correct timing and coordination of the entire body. This is a very difficult thing to master, with almost no end to improvement. You could look on developing this kind of "Chi" as the struggle to perfectly coordinate all aspects of the human body and mind to exert a force. You could fill volumes with instructions and observations on how to do this.

There are scientific explanations for every manifestation of chi, but you can't demonstrate chi without lots of experience.

I think the problem with using the word 'Chi' is that there isn't a clear definition of what 'Chi' is. I believe the character in Chinese can mean different things depending on the context of the writing. This by itself, makes it tough to clearly state in English, 'this is Chi.'

The other problem with 'Chi' in my opinion, is the lack of proof via the scientific method. What I mean by that is, if someone (Master A) can really transfer energy and move his student, by using his Chi, then it should work on me. This is where the proving falls short. Again, my opinion.

If the definition of Chi is what Scott states as:
"The force generated by correct timing and coordination of the entire body." That's fine, I can accept that because we can prove it and it would be consistant in its findings.

I think for discussions with regards to 'Chi' it's first important to define how you are using the word 'Chi' to help the discourse.

good training,
Joe

Chi Defined:

The idea of Chi is fundamental to Chinese Kung Fu and Medical thinking. However, because of its new arrival, the English language has yet to formulate a word or phrase that can adequately define its meaning. We do know that Chi is not some changeless, perpetual substance everything in the universe is composed of and defined by. Nor is it the proverbial "natural force" or "vital energy force", for, although it is occasionally translated in that way, traditional Chinese thought does not distinguish between matter and energy. Perhaps we could say that it is energy at the point of materializing? Unfortunately, neither classical (the Wong Di Nei Jing) nor contemporary (the Shanghai Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine) medical text attempts to describe the nature of Chi as a concept. Instead, they define or perceive Chi functionally by what it does in our bodies.

The Chinese medical texts describe Chi manifesting from three sources.The first is called "Prenatal Chi", which is transmitted from parents to their children at conception and is stored in the Kidneys. This explains why children inherit their parent's constitution. The second is "Earth Chi", which comes from the foods we eat. The third is "Heavenly Chi", and is extracted from the air we breathe. These form the Chi that permeates our entire body. Chinese medical texts also describe Chi as having several variant aspects and functions. Within the body, Chi possesses five major functions responsible for the soundness of our bodies. Chi is the source of all movement, voluntary and involuntary, whether walking, thinking or aging, all depends on Chi. It is inseparable from movement and grows with it. Chi protects our bodies from the environment. Hostile influences such as illness are resisted. Chi controls change within our bodies, such as digesting foods into blood, saliva, sweat, and bile. Chi keeps things inside our bodies where they belong. Organs from sagging, fluids remaining in their place, and prevents loss. Chi warms the body. If you doubt this, just touch a dead one.

Chi also has five primary types associated with specific actions within our bodies:

Organ Chi - Chinese Medicine states that every organ has the same Chi, yet each performs differently depending on the nature of its Chi.

Meridian Chi - Meridians are the pathways through which Chi travels to the various body parts adjusting and balancing their activities.

Nutritive Chi - This Chi is associated with our blood. It travels within our bloodstream transforming nutrients from our foods.

Protective Chi - This yang Chi regulates our immune system aiding in combating illness and disease.

Ancestral Chi - This Chi's function is to regulate our breathing and heart rate.

Remember to keep in mind that this is merely an introduction to the concept and nature of Chi and its relationship to the body. Chinese medical theory does not move in a linear fashion like in the West. The whole is always present and is refined with learning over time.

Interesting, does that mean that if I eat a baby's kidneys I will attain a better Chi level?
(if so, what is the peak Prenatal Chi age for an infant?).

Should I look into the parent's health history or
could a couple of scabby crack freaks produce a pure Chi enhancer baby?

However, in the case of Prenatal and Earth 'Chi'
couldn't those logically translate to English terms like; "DNA" and "Diet"?
I mean, couldn't genetics be what gives the child a parent's constitution?
(if not, is it better to eat the kidney's raw or
does pressure cooking seal in more Chi juices...
I'd rather not mess this up)

I'd really like to know.
Roberto Numero Dos III

Jeff,
That was an excellent post on the Chinese medical view of Chi, but you started your post with "Chi Defined," yet you never defined it.

The definition of a thing itself and an explanation of a things function are not the same.